Denmark and immigration

Mmmm Very interesting, it’ll will also be interesting to see the outcome.

In principle and theory I see the sense, in practice 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Getting women out of the "ghettos" has always been more about culture I would have thought.
So wont make much difference? If any?

The rules of certain religions wont be changing for women, where ever they are? Unfortunatly?

Else they could have changed by people moving countries. But they dont appear to have. At all?

And that, I think, in essence for me and maybe many others, is all part of the problem.

Values and types of behaviour, dont change, and havent, by moving countries.
So moving within one, is unlikely to work either. In my opinion.

I do have a first hand example of what might be evidence of this working in practice.

A young professional woman has recently joined our family. Her family came here from a Middle East country. They are Christian, but hold very conservative cultural values, and this young woman was expected to adhere to their cultural norms for women in their family - remaining at home until marriage etc. This young woman who had been born in the U.K., and educated in a school, which is primarily of white children, absorbed these different values and when she reached 16 she simply rejected her parents values and left home. Sad.y they have not yet been reconciled. She is now in her 20s having put herself through university and now doing a higher degree and working in a career associated with her degree. She has entirely absorbed western values and culture as I assume the Danish government is hoping will happen there.

Interesting. I'm sure Whitewavemark2's example is echoed throughout the country but we don't hear about them.

They banned the veil in 2018, but not the headscarf.

In terms of "values",I think there has been substantial change.

In the UK there is often a great difference between first generation incomers and third generation citizens without moving families by law.

School and uni influences, entry into the workforce sometimes at high levels - including of course girls and women.
Good examples are young people choosing their own spouse and figures on first cousin marriages dropping steadily over time.

I've witnessed the change over time of seeing very few women wearing the burka now as opposed to on first arrival. Another obvious change has been that second and third generation citizens are bi-lingual.

I noticed just last week in the park on a "Day out" groups of mixed race schoolchildren chattering away in English of course about video games and other 7 year old interests - only half the girls had a headscarf - it wouldn't have been like that 20 years ago nor in the 1970's in the first wave of immigration when I lived in a street of people and only the boys "played out".

I think problems arise depending on the size of the communities people live in and of course the difference between different interpretations of how you should live as a Muslim.

It's all very well suggesting "moving them out" but how? British citizens can choose where we want to live, and if we can, we chose to live where we feel accepted

- do you pick on individual families or groups of families - do we send them into hostile places (and there are certainly plenty of those).

A young professional woman has recently joined our family. Her family came here from a Middle East country. They are Christian, but hold very conservative cultural values, and this young woman was expected to adhere to their cultural norms for women in their family - remaining at home until marriage etc

That's an interesting point that it is perhaps not religious but cultural values which are making it difficult for people, especially women to integrate.

We have friends and I had colleagues who are Hindu, Muslim and Christian (RC) from the Indian sub-continent and from Uganda (Asian) and they are all well-integrated and have been for years. They do retain some cultural values but not to the extent of isolating women from general society.

I watched it too; it's been a fascination series (and the only time we've ever been able to endure SR).

The example of an immigrant forced to move home , was extraordinary. He's a taxi driver, pointedly insisted on speaking fluent Danish; obviously to make a point how integrated he is in Danish society.. He has worked there for decades, raised 4 children to 4 highly skilled professsions benefitting the host country. IOW his family ARE
highly integrated into Danish culture and societal values .. so I'd like to have seen where they were made to move to, to become more---- what?
Or, were they picked for removal to a white area BECAUSE they are so integrated, educated, intelligent, economically successful ?

It sounds a terrible policy unless you'd seen the previous program about Sweden's appalling problems due to failed migrant integration (with Somali immigrant mother from Somalia, accusing her teen daughter's ungrateful generation, born in Sweden, of inflicting lawless gang violence on the host country.) Denmark is trying to do better.

Catch up on iplayer.

Finland and Sweden's fear of being Russia's next target (and civilian preparation for invasion) casts a whole different light on Starmer's UK defence message.

The cultural laws against women are becoming more rigorously enforced when immigrants join their larger communities, and has much to do with the control of men over women. Easily enforced in matters of dress at a young age, then including behaviour, social circles, employment and marriage. Living near the coast I see ethnic minority families on te beach, the men and boys in shorts and T shirts, the women in ankle length dresses and fitted coats, the girls in long sleeved dresses with below the knee skirts and thick black tights and wellingtons, plus headscarves. Some schoos have been forced to accede to single sex swimming lessons and PE lessons for primary age children, and demands for prayer time. It is the older brothers who control their sisters' behaviour. l

I must watch it, I do like Simon Reeves, particularly his take on different societies.

I think the Danish approach is practical, pragmatic and in some ways inevitable. They have of course got a smaller population and I wonder whether it is easier to implement such strategies from that point of view, our population is so much greater and by extension unwieldy, we are, certainly, in England at any rate, more of a cultural melting pot. I imagine unsurprisingly Denmark wishes to retain its identity, and depending on the ratio of immigrants to Danish nationals, possibly there would be a greater fear of Danish values being subsumed by ones that are alien and have no resonance to theirs. Their neighbour, Sweden is certainly an example of how badly immigration has turned urban areas into gangland ghettos. There needs to be some honesty around ghettoisation and gang culture along with how we can we have equal rights enshrined in our respective countries, when some citizens because they live a life of separateness, might as well be living in a state within a state. Denmark is possibly going down the route of tackling it head on, head on because they can see what many European countries are grappling with. Ideally it would be incumbent, but sometimes isn't, for incomers to at least respect and to immerse themselves in the ethos and laws of their host country, without entirely letting go of their own cultural identity, as long as those aren't at odds, some are. The best way of doing that is not to be in a ghetto, hard when people immigrate in enormous swathes adding to already established communities from the old country. Ideally they would marry out to someone from the country they have chosen to live in, that's how it was for the immigrant elements in my family. That was at a time when generally the ties were cut in an absolute way, from wherever incomers came from, communication would have been quite intermittent by letter. Religion and cultural practices often preclude that though. There isn't an easy answer. Denmark may be the one to watch in spearheading a way forward.

Whitewavemark2

I do have a first hand example of what might be evidence of this working in practice.

A young professional woman has recently joined our family. Her family came here from a Middle East country. They are Christian, but hold very conservative cultural values, and this young woman was expected to adhere to their cultural norms for women in their family - remaining at home until marriage etc. This young woman who had been born in the U.K., and educated in a school, which is primarily of white children, absorbed these different values and when she reached 16 she simply rejected her parents values and left home. Sad.y they have not yet been reconciled. She is now in her 20s having put herself through university and now doing a higher degree and working in a career associated with her degree. She has entirely absorbed western values and culture as I assume the Danish government is hoping will happen there.

Unless I am missing something, that example is not at all what Denmark is going to try and do?
The girl was born in the Uk, grew up here, and already went to a "normal" school.

And with the best will in the world, that girl is now estranged from her family.

No of course not but think of the next generation!! That is what the Danish government is doing - thinking long term not short term.

It is to encourage integration by the children of the immigrants , and that is best achieved in the Danish governments opinion by ensuring that children of immigrants are immersed as far as possible into Danish culture.

I think in this country we also have a problem with "poor white" communities, where new people don't move in because "its a rough area", perhaps things changed for the area in the 70's / 80's & mass-unemployment has changed the culture.( We talk of the culture of GB, but it's changed massively since I was born, nothing to do with immigration)

I don't think our situation is the same as Scandinavia.We do have a lot of integrated communities, and ethnic minority families are much more common in rural and rural-suburban areas than they were even 10 years ago.

At first glance the forced dispersal of families in Denmark seems unjust. But I can appreciate that women's rights could be hard to promote in a concentrated immigrant community.Its an interesting post.

Interesting that Simon Reeves can comment like this but those of us who have been saying the same things for years get called racists on here.

I have spoken on here about there being ghettos in this country where white people dare not go and been told I am talking rubbish.

I have also spoken about many Muslim women being treated as second class citizens and been accused of lying.

I have said that there should be more integration and that anybody who comes here must learn to speak English and not rely on their small children to translate.

I have spoken out many times about forced marriages, FGM and first cousin marriages.

I agree with the Danes.

I used to live in Holland and the new housing projects were all mixed: home ownership; rented; social housing, detached; semis, flats; retirement blocks, all in the same area. My children played out in the street, all residential areas were restricted to 20 kph and they all mixed happily. The local schools catering for all, in the area. This is not a perfect answer but it does mean all the younger generation are integrated

eazybee

The cultural laws against women are becoming more rigorously enforced when immigrants join their larger communities, and has much to do with the control of men over women. Easily enforced in matters of dress at a young age, then including behaviour, social circles, employment and marriage. Living near the coast I see ethnic minority families on te beach, the men and boys in shorts and T shirts, the women in ankle length dresses and fitted coats, the girls in long sleeved dresses with below the knee skirts and thick black tights and wellingtons, plus headscarves. Some schoos have been forced to accede to single sex swimming lessons and PE lessons for primary age children, and demands for prayer time. It is the older brothers who control their sisters' behaviour. l

I think you are picking on "worst case" scenarios.

At the gym it's in a multi cultural area and the young women who swim wear an all in one outfit that closely resembles my grandchildren's "keep warm" swim outfits. The council swim pools have all women sessions which are quite popular with older women especially who feel self conscious.

It's all about how one views difference, either looking for what we have in common versus what is what drives us apart. I'm of the opinion that a better society emerges from finding what we have in common.

I wish the Danes good luck with their idea, and if it is successful I would be interested for it to be given consideration in a bigger society like the U.K.

primrose I’m so sorry that you have been called a rascist, a liar and that you talk rubbish.

I have a Danish DiL and our Danish born GC has moved back to Copenhagen to live and work.

There is little integration and definitely some no go areas.

Anything that makes a society safer and happier has to be given a go.

Perhaps our differences lie in how we think things could be improved as well as choices in how we "paint the picture".

As long as prejudice or simply lack of understanding, however covert, exists in mainly white communities, it's going to be hard to demand of people they move, and vice versa.

I'd say there are some "white" communities that are hostile to incomers, see it in terms of "us and them".

Not sure how to address this, however, except often its personally getting to know people that breaks the barriers down.

And of course in the workplace and schools.

I agree Wyllow3, it is pesonally getting to know people, workplace & schools that suddenly makes people realise what a lot they have in common.
Reform do very well in many areas that have hardly been affected by immigration.

Good for you Primrose53 for speaking out with your thoughts on immigrant integration, there are too many ready to shout racist.
I think what the Danes are doing is interesting and I hope it works well, by better integration and nipping future problems in the bud.Much better for the women in the family and next generation.

Here in Manchester I see more burkas and face coverings worn by young women than I saw twenty years ago.

Going back to the family in Denmark moved from their accommodation of many years to a more integrated area, I would have liked to have seen where they were moved to and was it just the husband and wife or the older children/adults as well. The 4 children were in professional careers and could well be married and living in their own flats/houses.

It could have been that the original flat was too big for a middle aged couple on their own and a more suitable sized flat was available in a more integrated area. Not enough information was given. It will be interesting to see how the Danish experiment turns out in a generations time.

I really enjoyed the programme and learned a lot about Scandinavia. SR presents well.