U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

Oreo

Maybe we’d just like for once to be not lied to? We know exactly why they’ve reversed it at long last and it ain’t anything to do with us doing well.Good that they have done it, don’t get me wrong, but all they need say is that ‘we were wrong, and we’ve listened’.

I'm more of a pragmatist and pressurising people to say sorry doesn't give me any thrill. I'll just receive my £200 and spend it - I don't care whether the gift label has "Nigel" or "Rachel" on it.

PS. It might bother Kemi that nobody thinks the Christmas surprise is from her!

Silverbrooks I think it's an attempt at a compromise. We're in a bubble on GN, but WFP isn't universally popular - just look at some other sites or Twitter to see how unfair some working age people think it is that pensioners receive anything when they don't. At least the government can now say they've ensured that all the poorest pensioners will receive it, while those who don't need it don't receive it.

I agree with Paul Lewis that the concept of universalism has been lost, which will please some people but causes its own problems.

Indeed, growstuff. Damned if they do or don't.

Paul Lewis (Moneybox) describes it rather well.

Be clear, this WFP change is not a U-turn. That would have been to give it to all pensioners, which will happen, but not take it back from some. So this is perhaps a J turn at best. But the principle of universal benefits has been lost. As it was with child benefit. Sad.

That's key for me. Universalism creates solidarity (at least among a demographic) while means testing, whereever the cliff edge is set, creates division.

Maybe we’d just like for once to be not lied to? We know exactly why they’ve reversed it at long last and it ain’t anything to do with us doing well.Good that they have done it, don’t get me wrong, but all they need say is that ‘we were wrong, and we’ve listened’.

Poppyred

Responded to the voice of Reform more like. 😂

Indirectly, but it's still democracy in action. The government is always being accused of not listening, so it has - and it still gets criticised! It seems some people would prefer the government had done nothing and handed Reform votes on a plate.

rafichagran

I am glad the government re instated the WFA. Alot of pensioners need this extra allowance.
Yes it is a U turn but to some pensioners a good one and a financial help.

🤙🏼
Am all for this kind of U turn but let’s be realistic, they got it wrong and all the nonsense about ‘we can now reverse it as we’re doing well’ is laughable lies.

I am glad the government re instated the WFA. Alot of pensioners need this extra allowance.
Yes it is a U turn but to some pensioners a good one and a financial help.

Poppyred

Responded to the voice of Reform more like. 😂

Being frightened of Reform, as both major Parties now are.That’s a big part of this WFA decision and it’s stupid to think otherwise.

LizzieDrip

Oreo

But, it was everyone, the Tories, Farage, some Labour backbenchers and political analysts and pundits and the public that have forced Starmer and Reeves to change tactics on the WFA so credit wherever it’s due.

I know you won’t ever be able to say this Oreo but maybe credit due to KS.

You mean the credit for changing a decision that should never have seen the light of day in the first place? Being forced to reverse it from just about everyone?For taking so long to reverse it?
Supporting a Labour government doesn’t mean ( to me) thinking their every decision is wonderful.

Responded to the voice of Reform more like. 😂

Doodledog

MaizieD

If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.

Good Lord, Dd. You sound like me 😱 Government spends, then gets much of it back via taxation of one kind or another.

I do understand that 😂

Where I part company is with the idea that direct taxes are not funding spending, but this is probably not the thread for that discussion.

Perhaps we can have a go after Reeves' statement on Wednesday

I'm sure there will be lots of 'Where is the money coming from?' posts...

growstuff

windmill1

"We've listened to the people" sayeth Robber Reeves. Oh yeah?
She wasn't listening when she was howled at last year.

And if it hadn't been for the Council Elections co-incidentally taking place this year, when Labour were given a massive bloody nose, Reeves would still be blithely giving two-fingers to pensioners.

Doesn't that show democracy in action - that Labour has responded to the voice of the people?

That's how I see it, growstuff.

When my children were young my mum would be aghast if I changed my mind about allowing them to do something, claiming that 'backing down' would 'make a rod for my back'. I saw it as changing my mind, or reconsidering, and it encouraged them to make a case for their point of view. I was never beaten down, but I was able to listen and compromise, or change my mind without feeling I had lost face.

Yes, it would have been easier just to say 'because I said so', but IMO good leadership is not doing what's easier for you, but doing what is right, even if you didn't see it that way at first.

I can understand the withdrawal, Maisie, but not the (lack of) messaging to explain it. That was unbelievably inept, and I can't understand how their Comms advisors (if they have them) signed that off.

Exactly, That’s what I keep saying DD.

I could blow that 55p a day on a couple of kWh of electricity.

Or, come November, I could go and buy 25 bottles of £8 wine to give as Christmas gifts and have some friends over for drinks. I’d pay back to the Government over £100 of that £200 in VAT and excise duty. The retailer will pay business taxes on his mark up. The staff who serve me will be paid wages and pay tax and NIC on those towards their own pensions and other contributory benefits. The shop will pay business rates to the council.

Public spending supports business, creates jobs and taxation.

Public spending also promotes well-being. I might chose to treat myself and friends to some tickets to The Nutcracker or to the Christmas Panto. I’d be supporting the arts, which has seen budgets slashed in recent years plus I would be out having fun rather than sitting at home alone perhaps feeling isolated and blue.

Reform’s fiscal plans will do to the markets exactly what Truss almost did, to cause private pension funds to fail. There would be no rescue this time as Reform want to abolish Quantitive Easing. So how would people with only SP and whatever savings they can salvage from the wreckage pay for healthcare? Reform supporters really need to wake up and stop listening to Farage’s schtick.

I’m a disabled pensioner, I’m not expecting this government to do me any favours.

karmalady

Running scared, flip flopping, not a good look

I will be getting it, under 35k

Would you rather they stuck to their guns to avoid accusations like yours?

You can always donate your WFA if it sticks in your craw to accept it.

MaizieD

^If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.^

Good Lord, Dd. You sound like me 😱 Government spends, then gets much of it back via taxation of one kind or another.

I do understand that 😂

Where I part company is with the idea that direct taxes are not funding spending, but this is probably not the thread for that discussion.

windmill1

"We've listened to the people" sayeth Robber Reeves. Oh yeah?
She wasn't listening when she was howled at last year.

And if it hadn't been for the Council Elections co-incidentally taking place this year, when Labour were given a massive bloody nose, Reeves would still be blithely giving two-fingers to pensioners.

Doesn't that show democracy in action - that Labour has responded to the voice of the people?

I still absolutely cannot understand what, or who, put Labour up to withdrawing the WFA in the first place.

Running scared, flip flopping, not a good look

I will be getting it, under 35k

If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.

Good Lord, Dd. You sound like me 😱 Government spends, then gets much of it back via taxation of one kind or another.

Poppyred

Thanks very much Reform! If it wasn’t for them “feeling Labours collar” this would have never happened. 😂

What a lot of poppycock poppyred
Nothing to do with the dreadful Farage or the equally dreadful Reform

The people who really deserve applause are the charities which support older people, Age UK for example, and all the people who stepped up to help others, like CAB and people running warm spaces etc, after the government claimed this would have no impact on the voluntary sector.

I think back to when new young Labour MPs who had barely found their feet were crying in the lobbies, whipped into voting against the motion to stop this. There are some Labour peers too who should be very ashamed.

If there is a lesson to be learned from this, it is to think twice about the consequences to everyone of hasty, broad stroke actions.

If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.

If governments (or anyone else) didn't take notice of public opinion they would be foolish, so I don't see this as their being 'forced' into it. As for Farage - do people really think he has the wellbeing of pensioners at heart? If he ever gets into government we'll be lucky to get pensions at all, and if we do we'll need every penny to pay for healthcare as the NHS won't exist, and getting insurance cover in older age and/or with pre-existing conditions will be eye-wateringly expensive.

Oreo

But, it was everyone, the Tories, Farage, some Labour backbenchers and political analysts and pundits and the public that have forced Starmer and Reeves to change tactics on the WFA so credit wherever it’s due.

I know you won’t ever be able to say this Oreo but maybe credit due to KS.

"We've listened to the people" sayeth Robber Reeves. Oh yeah?
She wasn't listening when she was howled at last year.

And if it hadn't been for the Council Elections co-incidentally taking place this year, when Labour were given a massive bloody nose, Reeves would still be blithely giving two-fingers to pensioners.