U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

But, it was everyone, the Tories, Farage, some Labour backbenchers and political analysts and pundits and the public that have forced Starmer and Reeves to change tactics on the WFA so credit wherever it’s due.

Doodledog

LizzieDrip

Wyllow3

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

I’ll take that bet Wyllow and I’ll up it £20 that we’ll see a “massive U turn” headline

I'm in. I'll send you my virtual stake by PM😂.

I see Farage is trying to take credit for 'persuading' the government to reinstate the WFA. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't so predictable.

So are the Tories😄😄😄

I don’t know, Allira. It was hard to hear as well as frustrating.

Essentially, we did all the work of crunching the numbers. All they then had to do was to post the PC claim form (which we had helped then to complete) and/or make a call to an energy supplier.

I’ve changed energy supplier twice in three years from Shell to Ovo to Octopus to get a better deal and it’s been easy every time. Just a phone call.

Partly, I think, it’s a fear of change, married perhaps to a dread of dealing with officialdom and call centres.

Once upon a time you could call into a local government office and speak face to face with someone or call into the gas or electricity board. Centralisation in far away call centres and energy competition hasn’t made life easier for people.

Casdon. Had Reeves not drawn attention to this last July, this would never have turned into the circus it has become, I suspect many younger people had never even heard of it, that pensioner households (under 80) effective get an extra £3.85 a week, just 55p a day, to help with energy costs at a time in their lives when they have retired after maybe 50 years of work, are at home more, are more sedentary and have declining health that may require a bit more heat to keep well.

Costa charge £4.40 for a flat white coffee.

Time for people to get some perspective.

I wonder how they are going to implement it , will we have to apply or will it be via your Tax code or DWP . I feel for those that were only slightly over the pension credit limit before, I had an acquaintance that was only a few pounds over in her claim so was refused. But those that did claim pension credit and were eligible will still get that now and be eligible for this so hopefully be better off in the long run.

It’s a dilemma for any government. Younger people are voters too, and it would seem that it is impossible to either meet everybody’s needs, or to stop one group feeling they are hard done by compared with another group. Fundamentally that is why people are disaffected with politics.

Allira

^We did help many people but there was still resistance from many. Time and time again I sat with elderly widows, showed them they were entitled to PC, showed them they could get a better energy deal by switching suppliers. They would listen patiently, understand that they could get say £50 a week extra income, save £100 on their energy bill and then say, Thank you dear but I think I will leave it. I don’t know how to overcome that barrier.^

Do some still hold the notion that this is charity or begging for help from the State?

I think so, that and the difficulty ( for them) in switching suppliers.

Grantanow

I think the original decision to remove WFA will stay in people's minds for a long time regardless of the u-turn. And what about the attack on disability benefitsand the two child. Has Labour got a tin ear?

It has two tin ears from what I have seen in the last year.

I think the original decision to remove WFA will stay in people's minds for a long time regardless of the u-turn. And what about the attack on disability benefitsand the two child. Has Labour got a tin ear?

We did help many people but there was still resistance from many. Time and time again I sat with elderly widows, showed them they were entitled to PC, showed them they could get a better energy deal by switching suppliers. They would listen patiently, understand that they could get say £50 a week extra income, save £100 on their energy bill and then say, Thank you dear but I think I will leave it. I don’t know how to overcome that barrier.

Do some still hold the notion that this is charity or begging for help from the State?

NanaK, I actually think the Mumsnet thread on this is grim and personally, I don't know why the Moderators on there don't do something about the blatant ageism and quite frankly some really terrible posts. Cannot believe all the bitterness about a one- off payment that's hardly a lot of money now. I really hope we never get Assisted- dying passed in this country as the attitudes on that forum really worry me. It seems more than a few really don't have time for either their own parents, or any older person. I'd hate to think my family felt like this about me.

There was no black hole. There can be no black hole. Watch Richard Murphy explain:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cop8qDHTU1Q

This was a choice born out of the notion that the books need to be balanced. They don’t.

Successive governments had known for decades that the WFP was poorly targeted and was effectively just a pension supplement. Fair enough one might say in a country which has arguably the lowest state pension in Europe. There was a suggestion to rename it Winter Payment but that was rejected on the grounds that leaving Fuel in the title would encourage pensioners to turn the thermostat up a degree or too.

If it wasn’t for the triple lock, it could be incorporated in the SP and paid out of the National Insurance Fund and taxed. There is plenty of money in NIF to do so, over 86 billion in reserve, more than 60 billion than there needs to be. The interest earned on that each year from the DMO would pay the WFP more than twice over.

But that would mean the payment would increase every year whereas it has remained at the same rate for 25 years. As I said before, with inflation that £200 would now be nearer £400.

What has been introduced now was one of the three options for reform that were in the government briefing paper published in November 2019. Here’s the link again - see page 27:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06019/SN06019.pdf

The publication of the paper was just weeks before the Johnson “Brexit mandate” election in December 2019.

A pandemic was heading our way where people were forced to stay home so household fuel costs would have been higher than normal. This was swiftly followed by the cost of living crisis triggered by Russia’s war on Ukraine.

All households were given help in the form of £400 under the Energy Benefit Support Scheme. An extra £300 was added to WFP for two years in 2022 and 2023. Lower income households received additional cost of living payments.

It was not the time then to be reforming WFP. Whether a Tory government then would have alienated its core voter base in this way, even without those crises, is moot. I doubt it would have. 67% of pensioners age 70 or over voted Tory in 2019. Only 14% voted Labour.

Reform had been in the 2017 Tory manifesto but was deeply unpopular and not pursued.

Labour know they are not popular with most older voters. That 67% vote share from 2019 was mostly split between Tory and Reform in 2024. Only 20% voted Labour.

Labour took a poorly calculated risk which has turned out to be a failure other than to increase Pension Credit uptake by about 5%. Whatever good this government does, it will always be remembered for this debacle.

All it has served to do now is set generation against generation. Among those engaged in generational welfare are those who only focus on wealthy pensioners when the truth of the matter is that many pensioners are poor especially single female pensioners.

Average pensioner income for a couple after housing costs (AHC) is £595 pw. But average single pensioner income (AHC) is only £282. Males £292, females £278. That’s a big gap between couples and single females and yet we all need to heat our homes.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2024/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2024

We need a dedicated push to help single householders.

For nine months, after the WFP announcement last July, I helped out at informal drop in session in our village to help people with PC claims and to help find people the best energy deal for them.

We did help many people but there was still resistance from many. Time and time again I sat with elderly widows, showed them they were entitled to PC, showed them they could get a better energy deal by switching suppliers. They would listen patiently, understand that they could get say £50 a week extra income, save £100 on their energy bill and then say, Thank you dear but I think I will leave it. I don’t know how to overcome that barrier.

LizzieDrip

Wyllow3

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

I’ll take that bet Wyllow and I’ll up it £20 that we’ll see a “massive U turn” headline

I'm in. I'll send you my virtual stake by PM😂.

I see Farage is trying to take credit for 'persuading' the government to reinstate the WFA. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't so predictable.

growstuff

Doodledog

This is from the press release:

"The payment will be recovered from individuals via HMRC based on their individual taxable incomes. There will be no need for household incomes to be aggregated."

Thanks. I clearly didn't read very closely 😂. I was getting ready to come home after some time away, so was doing lots of things at once.

As I said above, I think that's probably fairer, although potentially a household of two people with almost £70k coming in in pensions will get it when another with £36k and one person will not. Still, £35k is a decent threshold, so nobody should have to go cold.

Oreo You don’t seriously think this change was effected by any humility do you Doodledog? 😄

I think that there are people of a certain mindset who are incapable of changing their minds as they see it as 'backing down' or a 'U turn', and just as I think that is arrogant, I see those who are prepared to say 'ok, I've reconsidered and agree that this was a bad move' are doing so from a position of humility, yes. Laugh at me if you will, but I am as entitled to my view as you are.

It’s only being done with great reluctance and the reason given by RR that we’re in a better place economically is just laughable. At least give us the courtesy of being honest Rachel!
I don't think it's possible to know why other people do what they do with any degree of certainty. If there is a pattern of dishonesty or serial infidelity or whatever, we can think that they are acting true to form, but I think that accusing people of being dishonest because we think we know others' minds better than they do is, well, presumptuous at best. If someone is caught in an actual lie - eg saying they haven't done something they are proved to have done (or whatever), then fair enough, but ascribing motives to others is a different thing.

The trouble with the 'U turn' accusation is that it makes it all the more difficult for people to change their minds. It works against their detractors if genuine concerns can't be addressed without jeers of 'flip-flopping' and 'U turning' and accusations of weakness. I've always felt that accepting apologies with grace is as important as losing gracefully. There is rarely anything to be gained by mocking and derision.

Poppyred

Thanks very much Reform! If it wasn’t for them “feeling Labours collar” this would have never happened. 😂

Rubbish!

Thanks very much Reform! If it wasn’t for them “feeling Labours collar” this would have never happened. 😂

I see you have swallowed Starmer’s line in that the money had to come from somewhere so let’s soak the oldest.
And that there is a "black hole" as claimed by Ms Reeves which has been disputed by other experts.

PoliticsNerd

I think both last year and this are right. The Conservatives set out to stop Labour from making the changes the had set out. Leaving so many promises unfunded was just anti-democratic. The money had to come from somewhere and the BabyBoomers have, overall, done very well over the years. I think helping fill that black hole was a good thing for Pensioners to do.

Now they are adjusting but taking away an unaffordable universality. That seems okay to me. Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating so we will have to wait and see.

Maybe you’d enjoy filling that mysterious black hole yourself? I see you have swallowed Starmer’s line in that the money had to come from somewhere so let’s soak the oldest.
Taxes could and should have gone up from the outset of Labour taking office, that was the best and the fairest thing to do for all concerned.

Mollygo

It wasn’t really a U turn, even though that’s sn eye catching headline. It was at best a moderation of the levels at which you can claim.
The savings will probably used to pay for free breakfasts for all children, (except those at private schools) whether their parents can afford to feed their children or not.

Lots of 'frothing' going on over on 'Mumsnet'

The savings will probably used to pay for free breakfasts for all children, (except those at private schools) whether their parents can afford to feed their children or not.

Perhaps Mumsnetters need to be reminded of that!

I am an advocate of free school lunches btw.

LizzieDrip

Wyllow3

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

I’ll take that bet Wyllow and I’ll up it £20 that we’ll see a “massive U turn” headline

That because it really is a massive U turn! 😁

nanaK54

Lots of 'frothing' going on over on 'Mumsnet'

😂
Wait until they’re old and grey!
I’m not a pensioner as yet, but my Mum will be well pleased by the U turn as she was very worried by the loss of the money.
And before anyone asks if she really needs it, the answer is yes.

Wyllow3

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

I’ll take that bet Wyllow and I’ll up it £20 that we’ll see a “massive U turn” headline

It will be paid to all pensioners and clawed back through tax for those above the threshold.
“ The money will be paid all pensioners, but then clawed back from the wealthiest through increased tax payments. Pensioners who are eligible can also opt out and not receive the payment at all.”.

I wonder if this is being done to introduce more tax payments from pensioners?

Doodledog

Calendargirl

A pity this wasn’t what was done in the first place.

Of course it’s ’flip flopping’, this has only happened because of the negative response to the original plan.

No idea how it will all work.

Is 'flip-flopping' a good or bad thing, in your opinion? Should governments stick to decisions that the people they represent clearly dislike 'just because', or should they have the humility to change their minds?

Agree Calendargirl

You don’t seriously think this change was effected by any humility do you Doodledog? 😄
It was wrong in the first place to take it away from those just above the threshold for lots of benefits and was politically a crazy thing to do. What they’re doing now is much better in every way.
It’s only being done with great reluctance and the reason given by RR that we’re in a better place economically is just laughable. At least give us the courtesy of being honest Rachel!

It wasn’t really a U turn, even though that’s sn eye catching headline. It was at best a moderation of the levels at which you can claim.
The savings will probably used to pay for free breakfasts for all children, (except those at private schools) whether their parents can afford to feed their children or not.

I'm sticking with the great increase from 10% to the 75% and look forward to it appearing in certain papers..or not...