U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

LizzieDrip

Wyllow3

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

I’ll take that bet Wyllow and I’ll up it £20 that we’ll see a “massive U turn” headline

I'm in. I'll send you my virtual stake by PM😂.

I see Farage is trying to take credit for 'persuading' the government to reinstate the WFA. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't so predictable.

There was no black hole. There can be no black hole. Watch Richard Murphy explain:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cop8qDHTU1Q

This was a choice born out of the notion that the books need to be balanced. They don’t.

Successive governments had known for decades that the WFP was poorly targeted and was effectively just a pension supplement. Fair enough one might say in a country which has arguably the lowest state pension in Europe. There was a suggestion to rename it Winter Payment but that was rejected on the grounds that leaving Fuel in the title would encourage pensioners to turn the thermostat up a degree or too.

If it wasn’t for the triple lock, it could be incorporated in the SP and paid out of the National Insurance Fund and taxed. There is plenty of money in NIF to do so, over 86 billion in reserve, more than 60 billion than there needs to be. The interest earned on that each year from the DMO would pay the WFP more than twice over.

But that would mean the payment would increase every year whereas it has remained at the same rate for 25 years. As I said before, with inflation that £200 would now be nearer £400.

What has been introduced now was one of the three options for reform that were in the government briefing paper published in November 2019. Here’s the link again - see page 27:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06019/SN06019.pdf

The publication of the paper was just weeks before the Johnson “Brexit mandate” election in December 2019.

A pandemic was heading our way where people were forced to stay home so household fuel costs would have been higher than normal. This was swiftly followed by the cost of living crisis triggered by Russia’s war on Ukraine.

All households were given help in the form of £400 under the Energy Benefit Support Scheme. An extra £300 was added to WFP for two years in 2022 and 2023. Lower income households received additional cost of living payments.

It was not the time then to be reforming WFP. Whether a Tory government then would have alienated its core voter base in this way, even without those crises, is moot. I doubt it would have. 67% of pensioners age 70 or over voted Tory in 2019. Only 14% voted Labour.

Reform had been in the 2017 Tory manifesto but was deeply unpopular and not pursued.

Labour know they are not popular with most older voters. That 67% vote share from 2019 was mostly split between Tory and Reform in 2024. Only 20% voted Labour.

Labour took a poorly calculated risk which has turned out to be a failure other than to increase Pension Credit uptake by about 5%. Whatever good this government does, it will always be remembered for this debacle.

All it has served to do now is set generation against generation. Among those engaged in generational welfare are those who only focus on wealthy pensioners when the truth of the matter is that many pensioners are poor especially single female pensioners.

Average pensioner income for a couple after housing costs (AHC) is £595 pw. But average single pensioner income (AHC) is only £282. Males £292, females £278. That’s a big gap between couples and single females and yet we all need to heat our homes.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2024/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2024

We need a dedicated push to help single householders.

For nine months, after the WFP announcement last July, I helped out at informal drop in session in our village to help people with PC claims and to help find people the best energy deal for them.

We did help many people but there was still resistance from many. Time and time again I sat with elderly widows, showed them they were entitled to PC, showed them they could get a better energy deal by switching suppliers. They would listen patiently, understand that they could get say £50 a week extra income, save £100 on their energy bill and then say, Thank you dear but I think I will leave it. I don’t know how to overcome that barrier.

NanaK, I actually think the Mumsnet thread on this is grim and personally, I don't know why the Moderators on there don't do something about the blatant ageism and quite frankly some really terrible posts. Cannot believe all the bitterness about a one- off payment that's hardly a lot of money now. I really hope we never get Assisted- dying passed in this country as the attitudes on that forum really worry me. It seems more than a few really don't have time for either their own parents, or any older person. I'd hate to think my family felt like this about me.

We did help many people but there was still resistance from many. Time and time again I sat with elderly widows, showed them they were entitled to PC, showed them they could get a better energy deal by switching suppliers. They would listen patiently, understand that they could get say £50 a week extra income, save £100 on their energy bill and then say, Thank you dear but I think I will leave it. I don’t know how to overcome that barrier.

Do some still hold the notion that this is charity or begging for help from the State?

I think the original decision to remove WFA will stay in people's minds for a long time regardless of the u-turn. And what about the attack on disability benefitsand the two child. Has Labour got a tin ear?

Grantanow

I think the original decision to remove WFA will stay in people's minds for a long time regardless of the u-turn. And what about the attack on disability benefitsand the two child. Has Labour got a tin ear?

It has two tin ears from what I have seen in the last year.

Allira

^We did help many people but there was still resistance from many. Time and time again I sat with elderly widows, showed them they were entitled to PC, showed them they could get a better energy deal by switching suppliers. They would listen patiently, understand that they could get say £50 a week extra income, save £100 on their energy bill and then say, Thank you dear but I think I will leave it. I don’t know how to overcome that barrier.^

Do some still hold the notion that this is charity or begging for help from the State?

I think so, that and the difficulty ( for them) in switching suppliers.

It’s a dilemma for any government. Younger people are voters too, and it would seem that it is impossible to either meet everybody’s needs, or to stop one group feeling they are hard done by compared with another group. Fundamentally that is why people are disaffected with politics.

I wonder how they are going to implement it , will we have to apply or will it be via your Tax code or DWP . I feel for those that were only slightly over the pension credit limit before, I had an acquaintance that was only a few pounds over in her claim so was refused. But those that did claim pension credit and were eligible will still get that now and be eligible for this so hopefully be better off in the long run.

I don’t know, Allira. It was hard to hear as well as frustrating.

Essentially, we did all the work of crunching the numbers. All they then had to do was to post the PC claim form (which we had helped then to complete) and/or make a call to an energy supplier.

I’ve changed energy supplier twice in three years from Shell to Ovo to Octopus to get a better deal and it’s been easy every time. Just a phone call.

Partly, I think, it’s a fear of change, married perhaps to a dread of dealing with officialdom and call centres.

Once upon a time you could call into a local government office and speak face to face with someone or call into the gas or electricity board. Centralisation in far away call centres and energy competition hasn’t made life easier for people.

Casdon. Had Reeves not drawn attention to this last July, this would never have turned into the circus it has become, I suspect many younger people had never even heard of it, that pensioner households (under 80) effective get an extra £3.85 a week, just 55p a day, to help with energy costs at a time in their lives when they have retired after maybe 50 years of work, are at home more, are more sedentary and have declining health that may require a bit more heat to keep well.

Costa charge £4.40 for a flat white coffee.

Time for people to get some perspective.

Doodledog

LizzieDrip

Wyllow3

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

I’ll take that bet Wyllow and I’ll up it £20 that we’ll see a “massive U turn” headline

I'm in. I'll send you my virtual stake by PM😂.

I see Farage is trying to take credit for 'persuading' the government to reinstate the WFA. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't so predictable.

So are the Tories😄😄😄

But, it was everyone, the Tories, Farage, some Labour backbenchers and political analysts and pundits and the public that have forced Starmer and Reeves to change tactics on the WFA so credit wherever it’s due.

"We've listened to the people" sayeth Robber Reeves. Oh yeah?
She wasn't listening when she was howled at last year.

And if it hadn't been for the Council Elections co-incidentally taking place this year, when Labour were given a massive bloody nose, Reeves would still be blithely giving two-fingers to pensioners.

Oreo

But, it was everyone, the Tories, Farage, some Labour backbenchers and political analysts and pundits and the public that have forced Starmer and Reeves to change tactics on the WFA so credit wherever it’s due.

I know you won’t ever be able to say this Oreo but maybe credit due to KS.

If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.

If governments (or anyone else) didn't take notice of public opinion they would be foolish, so I don't see this as their being 'forced' into it. As for Farage - do people really think he has the wellbeing of pensioners at heart? If he ever gets into government we'll be lucky to get pensions at all, and if we do we'll need every penny to pay for healthcare as the NHS won't exist, and getting insurance cover in older age and/or with pre-existing conditions will be eye-wateringly expensive.

The people who really deserve applause are the charities which support older people, Age UK for example, and all the people who stepped up to help others, like CAB and people running warm spaces etc, after the government claimed this would have no impact on the voluntary sector.

I think back to when new young Labour MPs who had barely found their feet were crying in the lobbies, whipped into voting against the motion to stop this. There are some Labour peers too who should be very ashamed.

If there is a lesson to be learned from this, it is to think twice about the consequences to everyone of hasty, broad stroke actions.

Poppyred

Thanks very much Reform! If it wasn’t for them “feeling Labours collar” this would have never happened. 😂

What a lot of poppycock poppyred
Nothing to do with the dreadful Farage or the equally dreadful Reform

If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.

Good Lord, Dd. You sound like me 😱 Government spends, then gets much of it back via taxation of one kind or another.

Running scared, flip flopping, not a good look

I will be getting it, under 35k

I still absolutely cannot understand what, or who, put Labour up to withdrawing the WFA in the first place.

windmill1

"We've listened to the people" sayeth Robber Reeves. Oh yeah?
She wasn't listening when she was howled at last year.

And if it hadn't been for the Council Elections co-incidentally taking place this year, when Labour were given a massive bloody nose, Reeves would still be blithely giving two-fingers to pensioners.

Doesn't that show democracy in action - that Labour has responded to the voice of the people?

MaizieD

^If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.^

Good Lord, Dd. You sound like me 😱 Government spends, then gets much of it back via taxation of one kind or another.

I do understand that 😂

Where I part company is with the idea that direct taxes are not funding spending, but this is probably not the thread for that discussion.

karmalady

Running scared, flip flopping, not a good look

I will be getting it, under 35k

Would you rather they stuck to their guns to avoid accusations like yours?

You can always donate your WFA if it sticks in your craw to accept it.

I’m a disabled pensioner, I’m not expecting this government to do me any favours.

Exactly, That’s what I keep saying DD.

I could blow that 55p a day on a couple of kWh of electricity.

Or, come November, I could go and buy 25 bottles of £8 wine to give as Christmas gifts and have some friends over for drinks. I’d pay back to the Government over £100 of that £200 in VAT and excise duty. The retailer will pay business taxes on his mark up. The staff who serve me will be paid wages and pay tax and NIC on those towards their own pensions and other contributory benefits. The shop will pay business rates to the council.

Public spending supports business, creates jobs and taxation.

Public spending also promotes well-being. I might chose to treat myself and friends to some tickets to The Nutcracker or to the Christmas Panto. I’d be supporting the arts, which has seen budgets slashed in recent years plus I would be out having fun rather than sitting at home alone perhaps feeling isolated and blue.

Reform’s fiscal plans will do to the markets exactly what Truss almost did, to cause private pension funds to fail. There would be no rescue this time as Reform want to abolish Quantitive Easing. So how would people with only SP and whatever savings they can salvage from the wreckage pay for healthcare? Reform supporters really need to wake up and stop listening to Farage’s schtick.