U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

growstuff

windmill1

"We've listened to the people" sayeth Robber Reeves. Oh yeah?
She wasn't listening when she was howled at last year.

And if it hadn't been for the Council Elections co-incidentally taking place this year, when Labour were given a massive bloody nose, Reeves would still be blithely giving two-fingers to pensioners.

Doesn't that show democracy in action - that Labour has responded to the voice of the people?

That's how I see it, growstuff.

When my children were young my mum would be aghast if I changed my mind about allowing them to do something, claiming that 'backing down' would 'make a rod for my back'. I saw it as changing my mind, or reconsidering, and it encouraged them to make a case for their point of view. I was never beaten down, but I was able to listen and compromise, or change my mind without feeling I had lost face.

Yes, it would have been easier just to say 'because I said so', but IMO good leadership is not doing what's easier for you, but doing what is right, even if you didn't see it that way at first.

I can understand the withdrawal, Maisie, but not the (lack of) messaging to explain it. That was unbelievably inept, and I can't understand how their Comms advisors (if they have them) signed that off.

Doodledog

MaizieD

If pensioners are not spending every penny on keeping warm, more will be spent in their local economies, and the government will get tax back (both from retailers and via VAT) so the cost will not be as much as is being 'spent'.

Good Lord, Dd. You sound like me 😱 Government spends, then gets much of it back via taxation of one kind or another.

I do understand that 😂

Where I part company is with the idea that direct taxes are not funding spending, but this is probably not the thread for that discussion.

Perhaps we can have a go after Reeves' statement on Wednesday

I'm sure there will be lots of 'Where is the money coming from?' posts...

Responded to the voice of Reform more like. 😂

LizzieDrip

Oreo

But, it was everyone, the Tories, Farage, some Labour backbenchers and political analysts and pundits and the public that have forced Starmer and Reeves to change tactics on the WFA so credit wherever it’s due.

I know you won’t ever be able to say this Oreo but maybe credit due to KS.

You mean the credit for changing a decision that should never have seen the light of day in the first place? Being forced to reverse it from just about everyone?For taking so long to reverse it?
Supporting a Labour government doesn’t mean ( to me) thinking their every decision is wonderful.

Poppyred

Responded to the voice of Reform more like. 😂

Being frightened of Reform, as both major Parties now are.That’s a big part of this WFA decision and it’s stupid to think otherwise.

I am glad the government re instated the WFA. Alot of pensioners need this extra allowance.
Yes it is a U turn but to some pensioners a good one and a financial help.

rafichagran

I am glad the government re instated the WFA. Alot of pensioners need this extra allowance.
Yes it is a U turn but to some pensioners a good one and a financial help.

🤙🏼
Am all for this kind of U turn but let’s be realistic, they got it wrong and all the nonsense about ‘we can now reverse it as we’re doing well’ is laughable lies.

Poppyred

Responded to the voice of Reform more like. 😂

Indirectly, but it's still democracy in action. The government is always being accused of not listening, so it has - and it still gets criticised! It seems some people would prefer the government had done nothing and handed Reform votes on a plate.

Maybe we’d just like for once to be not lied to? We know exactly why they’ve reversed it at long last and it ain’t anything to do with us doing well.Good that they have done it, don’t get me wrong, but all they need say is that ‘we were wrong, and we’ve listened’.

Indeed, growstuff. Damned if they do or don't.

Paul Lewis (Moneybox) describes it rather well.

Be clear, this WFP change is not a U-turn. That would have been to give it to all pensioners, which will happen, but not take it back from some. So this is perhaps a J turn at best. But the principle of universal benefits has been lost. As it was with child benefit. Sad.

That's key for me. Universalism creates solidarity (at least among a demographic) while means testing, whereever the cliff edge is set, creates division.

Silverbrooks I think it's an attempt at a compromise. We're in a bubble on GN, but WFP isn't universally popular - just look at some other sites or Twitter to see how unfair some working age people think it is that pensioners receive anything when they don't. At least the government can now say they've ensured that all the poorest pensioners will receive it, while those who don't need it don't receive it.

I agree with Paul Lewis that the concept of universalism has been lost, which will please some people but causes its own problems.

Oreo

Maybe we’d just like for once to be not lied to? We know exactly why they’ve reversed it at long last and it ain’t anything to do with us doing well.Good that they have done it, don’t get me wrong, but all they need say is that ‘we were wrong, and we’ve listened’.

I'm more of a pragmatist and pressurising people to say sorry doesn't give me any thrill. I'll just receive my £200 and spend it - I don't care whether the gift label has "Nigel" or "Rachel" on it.

PS. It might bother Kemi that nobody thinks the Christmas surprise is from her!

PS. I've always thought holding grudges a tad childish.

It’s 55p a day. It would pay for 2 kWh of electricity. That’s the power required to put the oven on for 30 minutes to warm up a meal. If the country’s younger population begrudge that to its senior citizens who have maybe worked for 50 years, paying an extra 15 years of NIC that gives them no extra pension, what have we come to?

I am tired of the politics of envy, fomented by political forces who incite this emotion for their own political gain.

Silverbrooks

It’s 55p a day. It would pay for 2 kWh of electricity. That’s the power required to put the oven on for 30 minutes to warm up a meal. If the country’s younger population begrudge that to its senior citizens who have maybe worked for 50 years, paying an extra 15 years of NIC that gives them no extra pension, what have we come to?

I am tired of the politics of envy, fomented by political forces who incite this emotion for their own political gain.

I feel the same about the politics of envy, but some politicians thrive on it and playing the victim - and I'm not pointing the finger just at poorer working-age people .

👏👏👏

To both of you.

Poppyred and Oreo, what is it that makes you so sure that the WFA rethinking has anything to do with Reform?

The Intergenerational Foundation has caused a lot of strife and resentment by younger people towards older generations. They stir the pot by telling them that older generations were luckier than them and have had it all easy.

Allira

The Intergenerational Foundation has caused a lot of strife and resentment by younger people towards older generations. They stir the pot by telling them that older generations were luckier than them and have had it all easy.

I don't think the IF has told younger generations that older generations had it all easy, but it is certainly true that wealth has moved towards the older generations (mainly via property, pensions and student loans) and pensioner poverty is not so prevalent as it was a generation ago.

Not all pensioners are wealthy, or even well-off, but that seems to be the perception amongst many younger people.

I've had it said to me in a semi-jocular fashion. "You're baby boomers who stole our future".
In fact we're not anyway.

Oreo

rafichagran

I am glad the government re instated the WFA. Alot of pensioners need this extra allowance.
Yes it is a U turn but to some pensioners a good one and a financial help.

🤙🏼
Am all for this kind of U turn but let’s be realistic, they got it wrong and all the nonsense about ‘we can now reverse it as we’re doing well’ is laughable lies.

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Of course I totally disagree with this - and expect to see the sentiments echoed tomorrow in various newspapers!

As has been pointed out, the UK state pension is low compared to those in other countries.
Giving these allowances rather than incorporating them into the pension means they can be taken away at any time and can also be means tested.

You're baby boomers who stole our future

I’d pin them down and make them quantify that little soundbite.

People need to be careful what they wish for with Reform.

On pensions, their 2024 election contract said:

Countries like Australia do savings and pensions much better and cheaper than we do and from a much younger age.

It’s all about cheap with Reform (other than for the multi-millionaire, pocket-lining grandees of the party, flying around in private jets funded by their crypto-gambling donors.)

As I understand it, the Age Pension in Australia is means-tested based on income and assets.

They would crash private pension schemes in a heartbeat through unfunded tax cuts and then means-test the State Pension.

Any pressure they think they brought to bear for this J turn was another turn in their game of performance politics, just as we have seen the last couples of days with Zia Yusuf’s histrionics.