U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

You're baby boomers who stole our future

I’d pin them down and make them quantify that little soundbite.

Admittedly he did laugh and pretend it was supposed to be a joke. I did refrain from mentioning that his boss, who is only a bit more than half our age, owns three houses and perhaps he should ask for a pay rise if he's struggling!

Wyllow3

Of course I totally disagree with this - and expect to see the sentiments echoed tomorrow in various newspapers!

So how do you see things?
Are you saying you honestly believe we are doing so well as a country that Reeves and Starmer say ‘Hey, There’s so much money now that we can afford to pay 75% of pensioners the WFA, well how about that!’
The decision they took to not pay it bar those on pension credit, a year ago has dogged their heels ever since and they knew it was wrong then and they know it is wrong now. Public opinion took them by surprise (I mean why! They’re politicians fgs) the local elections and the spread of Reform is the final nail in the coffin of an utterly wrong and stupid policy.

The State Age Pension is means-tested.

However, pension contributions by employers are now compulsory. The employers have to pay the equivalent of 11.5% (increasing to 12%) of salary into a superannuation fund for each employee. The employee can make extra payments which attract part tax relief and the employee can add in lump sums too.

There is also a Medicare levy of 2% and benefits, such pay etc are funded from this and general taxation.

That was in reply to Silverbrooks's post.

Allira

^You're baby boomers who stole our future^

I’d pin them down and make them quantify that little soundbite.

Admittedly he did laugh and pretend it was supposed to be a joke. I did refrain from mentioning that his boss, who is only a bit more than half our age, owns three houses and perhaps he should ask for a pay rise if he's struggling!

Allira. Maybe I should also introduce him to my sole trader painter and decorator (age 50) who now owns four rental houses (owned outright) and is currently in process of buying two more having sold his holiday home as he objects to paying double council tax.

Frankly, overall what matters to me is that they are doing the right thing now.

Yes us LP members were telling them from day one it was a mistake, not the principal, but the level, but I suspect it was a panic move and now they are putting it right.

Respect for humility in admitting getting it wrong - however it's presented I don't actually mind.

Glass half full not half empty.

Everyone has a point of view, but calling those of others 'stupid' and 'laughable' doesn't make an argument stronger - quite the reverse.

Divert alert - scroll on if that will annoy you - The Intergenerational Foundation has caused a lot of strife and resentment by younger people towards older generations. They stir the pot by telling them that older generations were luckier than them and have had it all easy. (Allira)

I agree that the IF has done a lot of damage, and see it as a deliberate 'divide and conquer' strategy, whether that is persuading older people that anyone with 'the latest phone' or a tattoo must be spending above their means and takeaway coffee is responsible for the housing shortage, or making younger people see oldies as grasping uncaring sorts who have 'pulled the ladder up behind us'. Neither is true.

When I hear the former I remind people that they too are likely to have had the latest trends in their youth - whether that was a shampoo and set/beehive backcomb once a week or a lava lamp and egg chair. When young people rant about older ones, I ask what they have done personally to make life better for future generations, and remind them that most of us just do the best we can within the norms of the day. Movers and shakers are a rare breed in any generation.

Nobody has ever come back with a sensible answer to either. It's either 'we didn't have mobiles' (well, no - they didn't exist, but you might have had a TV or a washing machine that your parents didn't), or 'I am vegan' (or 'I've joined Greenpeace' or similar) which is a personal choice and not something that will not make their grandchildren more financially secure.

Both sets of people tend to want to buy a house, as that is the British way. Nobody with a brain wants to lose money on the deal, and most would be happy if they could buy an equivalent house when they sell theirs (or a better one by adding extra money). It has always been tough being young, but usually life gets better financially as we age, but the flip side is that physically it gets worse. My son often says he wishes he could retire (he's 34, so had better forget it for a few decades😂) and I say quite genuinely that I would happily swap my retirement for his youth.

I do understand how hard it is for young people to get on the housing ladder - I have two Millenials myself - but the point is that they want to do so for the same reasons as we did. They want to have paid it off some day and be able to relax in retirement. Which is all those of us who are now in that position are doing. It's just that they are presented as aspirational and we as grasping for wanting the same thing. It's a con, and nobody should fall for it. Wasn't the IF the brainchild of Dominic Cummings?

Silverbrooks

Allira

You're baby boomers who stole our future

I’d pin them down and make them quantify that little soundbite.

Admittedly he did laugh and pretend it was supposed to be a joke. I did refrain from mentioning that his boss, who is only a bit more than half our age, owns three houses and perhaps he should ask for a pay rise if he's struggling!

Allira. Maybe I should also introduce him to my sole trader painter and decorator (age 50) who now owns four rental houses (owned outright) and is currently in process of buying two more having sold his holiday home as he objects to paying double council tax.

It's not him, he may be a plumber I think, so perhaps he should set up his own business and make a fortune!

Thanks, Allira. I don't want to derail from the topic of WFP too much so perhaps a topic for a separate thread but it would be interesting to look at UK and Australian systems side by side.

This is one of the issues I have with Reform's fag packet economics. No detail, just cheap this, cut that, throwaway words that sound attactive to some but the reality could be very different.

Easy to say but all promises atm.

Good post Doodledog

Wasn't the IF the brainchild of Dominic Cummings?

I'm not sure, don't think so but I know Angus Hanton was involved.

It has always made me feel rather uncomfortable. I don't remember any of this resentment towards older people when we were young and struggling.

I've had it said to me in a semi-jocular fashion. "You're baby boomers who stole our future".
In fact we're not anyway.

There is am element of truth in the statement. We are of one of the generations that voted for Thatcher in 1979 (though not all of us did). It was her embrace of the economic theory that state spending should be cut as far as possible, that the provision of services should be left to the market (i.e privatised) and that wealth taxes should be radically reduced, to 'reward' entrepreneurship and in the mistaken belief that wealth would 'trickle down', that has caused a constant increase in wealth inequality (a gap which had been closing in the preceding 30 years) as more and more money flowed upward to shareholders in privatised industries, the need to pay dividends leading to increased cost to the consumers, and, because the wealthy didn't spend the extra money gained through reduction in their tax into the economy, the expected 'trickle down' failed to materialise.
By selling off council housing cheaply and not allowing the money to be spent on more social housing she did away with affordable rented property and allowed private landlords to profit from the shortage of rented accommodation by raising rents.
She also curtailed much of the unions' ability to negotiate for improved pay for workers by increased regulation and by destroying much of our industrial base, without much thought of how to replace the jobs lost.

We had a brief respite under the 1997 - 2010 Labour governments but as they adhered to what had become economic orthodoxy the improvement was far from radical.

Then we had tory 'austerity' imposed on us, which saw stagnating wages and cuts to public spending which not only lost many people their jobs but also which led to businesses which did government works losing work and cutting staff.

There's much more to it than just this, but, for all the 'hardships' we experienced years ago, many of us have still benefitted more from cheap or free university education, inflated house prices and decent pension schemes than our children and grandchildren ever will.

Everything always boils down to economics in the end. Current economic orthodoxy has benefitted the wealthy and left our rising generations behind.

Who knows. In an alternative universe we might not have had Thatcher, who was devastatingly mistaken with her 'handbag economics', and things might be quite different today...

P.S The US is in a mess today for the same reasons... they followed the same economic gurus...

In fact we're not anyway.
We're all lumped together, though!
Free university education? Only 4% of school leavers went to university anyway.
Houses were cheaper in relation to salaries but then some people were left in negative equity when they were still paying a mortgage. Endowment policies linked to mortgages failed.

Yes, we really 'had it good'

We're not baby boomers either!

^ Endowment policies linked to mortgages failed.^

Endowment mortgages were a Thatcherite, market inspired creation. The belief that investment in the markets would always be profitable. We got caught by that, too, though fortunately we didn't end up in negative equity.

However, the house we bought 30 years ago is now 'worth' immeasurably more than we paid for it. Without us having to spend on it over the years anywhere near the difference between the purchase price and the amount it is worth now.

Allira

^In fact we're not anyway.^
We're all lumped together, though!
Free university education? Only 4% of school leavers went to university anyway.
Houses were cheaper in relation to salaries but then some people were left in negative equity when they were still paying a mortgage. Endowment policies linked to mortgages failed.

Yes, we really 'had it good'

We're not baby boomers either!

Slight correction.

8 - 10% of school leavers went to university in 1973, when I did.

growstuff

Allira

In fact we're not anyway.
We're all lumped together, though!
Free university education? Only 4% of school leavers went to university anyway.
Houses were cheaper in relation to salaries but then some people were left in negative equity when they were still paying a mortgage. Endowment policies linked to mortgages failed.

Yes, we really 'had it good'

We're not baby boomers either!

Slight correction.

8 - 10% of school leavers went to university in 1973, when I did.

No correction needed, in 1963 4% of school leavers went to university.

Your response is entirely predictable, Allira. I've found that very few posters are able to admit how lucky we have been. They love playing the 'Three Yorkshire Men' game in their comfortable old age.

I don't think they like the young very much, either, apart from their pet ones, of course, their children and grandchildren.

Doodledog Creating division certainly sounds like Dominic Cummings, but I don't think he ever had anything to do with IF. He did run a think-tank called "New Frontiers Foundation", which was about winning elections (I think) - he put his thinking to good use in the Brexit campaign.

Allira

growstuff

Allira

In fact we're not anyway.
We're all lumped together, though!
Free university education? Only 4% of school leavers went to university anyway.
Houses were cheaper in relation to salaries but then some people were left in negative equity when they were still paying a mortgage. Endowment policies linked to mortgages failed.

Yes, we really 'had it good'

We're not baby boomers either!

Slight correction.

8 - 10% of school leavers went to university in 1973, when I did.

No correction needed, in 1963 4% of school leavers went to university.

It's probably worth remembering the age gap on GN.

MaizieD

Your response is entirely predictable, Allira. I've found that very few posters are able to admit how lucky we have been. They love playing the 'Three Yorkshire Men' game in their comfortable old age.

I don't think they like the young very much, either, apart from their pet ones, of course, their children and grandchildren.

You may have been lucky so that remark was totally predictable.

Not everyone was so fortunate, nor do they inhabit the well-heeled middle classes where so many Gransnetters seem to reside.

I know many younger people, funnily enough they seem to love us both and . I'm second Mum to several apparently!! But they're not resentful of older people, they generally love their own parents too.
Perhaps they don't inhabit Mumsnet.

Your post has come across as rather spiteful in fact.

Your response is entirely predictable, Allira.
Could you clarify that remark please MaizieD?

You seem to have ideas about me which are untrue, so on what basis did you form that opinion?

I find Maizie that try as I might, I don't fully understand (I get the gist, its Keynesian economics and borrowing for growth, I did at uni but that was a long time ago - perhaps if we hit a recession due to world factors we cant control - it might take root.

Think its a BAD move personally

we are in our 60's, I have a PP, he doesn't . Mother is in her late 80's and has had every benefit going from being in the right place/right time

She is loaded, full state pension, 30+ years council pension PLUS full police pension - even though her DH only had 20 years service and has been dead 12 years

I personally dont know of any pensioner who is struggling to the extent its heat or eat. I accept there are the few who have slipped through the net, but unless its actually means tested, its costing the ````uk tax payer way too much

Now me and he, being of the age where our pension ages are being shifted pillow to post, where were are hurting too much to be able to work full time to pay the bills before pensions kick in, Id be grateful for that money

Mother in the meantime send hers ro the RNIL ( and good luck to them )

Usedtobeblonde

Just for clarity , does anyone know or has seen if the £3700, which is the figure I have read, is gross or net income.
I.e, before or after tax?

This is exactly what I was wondering.

It's obvious Reeves has backtracked because of the backlash on the doorstep, local elections and by-election. Nothing to with warm feelings for pensioners and the excuse of an improving financial situation is a blatant lie. They are worried about the voters. Starmer should get rid of her - she's a liability.