Gransnet forums

News & politics

U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

(338 Posts)
vegansrock Mon 09-Jun-25 12:59:59

I’m not sure about this one. Is it sensible listening to critics on this or flip flopping?

Casdon Tue 10-Jun-25 20:37:27

Poppyred

Chocolatelovinggran

Forgive me returning,Poppyred, but I did ask for some evidence to support your assertion that this change was due to Reform,other than your beliefs that "you'd be a fool to think otherwise " and " don't be fooled by them".
These are your thoughts, to which you are, of course, entitled, but with no back up in fact, that is all they are.
I might think differently, but I'm not sure that defines me as a fool.

I didn’t call you a fool Chocolatelovinggran. (Please read my previous post again.) Labour took away the WFP a few weeks after coming to power and have consistently stated that they would not reverse this decision. When the Reform party formed and became very popular in the polls and stated that they would reverse this decision if they came to power, it stands to reason that they had to do something! Politicians only care about their standing in the polls, that’s what I meant by ‘don’t be fooled’, and of course it is only my opinion. They’re not going to own up to that, are they? 😁

They haven’t actually reversed the decision, as the principle of WFA becoming a means tested rather than a universal benefit has been established. That means WFA is in future going to be subject to governments changing the eligibility criteria as they wish.

AN41 Tue 10-Jun-25 20:21:49

Quote from The Treasury yesterday.

"No pensioner will need to take any action as they will automatically receive the payment this winter, and for those with incomes above the threshold it will be automatically recovered via HMRC. The payment of £200 per household, or £300 per household where there is someone over 80, will be made automatically this winter. Over 12 million pensioners across the United Kingdom will also benefit from the Triple Lock, with their State Pension set to increase by up to £1,900 this parliament."

That is a far better thought out decision. I like it.

Poppyred Tue 10-Jun-25 20:14:04

Chocolatelovinggran

Forgive me returning,Poppyred, but I did ask for some evidence to support your assertion that this change was due to Reform,other than your beliefs that "you'd be a fool to think otherwise " and " don't be fooled by them".
These are your thoughts, to which you are, of course, entitled, but with no back up in fact, that is all they are.
I might think differently, but I'm not sure that defines me as a fool.

I didn’t call you a fool Chocolatelovinggran. (Please read my previous post again.) Labour took away the WFP a few weeks after coming to power and have consistently stated that they would not reverse this decision. When the Reform party formed and became very popular in the polls and stated that they would reverse this decision if they came to power, it stands to reason that they had to do something! Politicians only care about their standing in the polls, that’s what I meant by ‘don’t be fooled’, and of course it is only my opinion. They’re not going to own up to that, are they? 😁

Silverbrooks Tue 10-Jun-25 20:03:53

The timing last year was bad, no question not least that people had also had two consecutive years of receiving at extra £300 CoL payment with the WFP.

Energy prices had dropped substantially but for people on very low incomes they will have welcomed that £500 (or £600 depending on age). I wonder to what extent people hadn't realised it was going to drop back to £200 (or £300) for 2024 and that made it sting more.

As I have said before, most people on-grid are having their annual enegy costs spread evenly over the year now, building a spring summer credit toward autumn winter. Most energy suppliers now want to charge a higher tariff for variable direct debits so it’s less expensive to pay by fixed DD. Once that £200 lands around November it’s just being added to someone’s bank balace and can be spent on anything, probably something Christmas related. It matters not. It was never compulsory to spend it on fuel.

It amounts to just 55p or 82p a day. It’s peanuts but it’s the principle of taking away something that has been in place since 1997 and with such little notice. A woman in her late 80s now will have received WFP since in was introduced. I am sure it felt like a slap in the face to our most senior citizens.

There are all kinds of ways that someone can make up £200 or £300 quite easily. Switching bank accounts, cash backs for switching energy providers, referral discounts etc but that isn’t always easy for the very elderly.

You say growstuff Maybe the fuss about WFP was manufactured, so that people didn't look too closely at the ways women (and poorer people in general) are still at a disadvantage.

My gut tells me this is something Reeves wanted to do. She knew the Tories had wanted to do it in 2017. One can only assume she knew about the 2019 briefing paper and the options for reform in it that the previous goverment didnt act on as the timing want right. The PC one that has been tried and largely failed was one of them, as is this one to withdraw it from those with higher incomes. Sunak then presented her with an open goal calling the election when he did.

I dont think Labour are frightened of Reform in the way that some suggest. If Starmer called a snap election tomorrow and Reform won, it would be unable to form a government. Left to their own devices they would crash the economy in days.

You Gov polls show that young people really don’t like Reform and few Labour voters of any age age switch from red to any shade of blue.

Farage will naturally take credit for the J turn in the same way that he would take credit if my dog peed up a lampost. He’s a grade A narcissist. That’s what they do.

In other news: The latest figures from the Electoral Commission show Reform failing to raise as much money as the Conservatives, despite its claims to be capturing its rival party’s donors. The Tories raised £3.3m, Labour £2.3m, and Reform and the Liberal Democrats about £1.5m each.

A lot of the Reform money is coming from convicted fraudster George Cottrell’s mother. She’s donated £750,000. The other big donor to the party over the last quarter was a company called Tisun Investments, controlled by Tice. The company has given £613,000 since the beginning of the year in 33 tranches.

Nick Candy, Reform’s treasurer (although not according to latest Companies House records), had pledged to give about £1,000,000 but his donation was not in official filings published by the Electoral Commission on Tuesday.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/10/fiona-cottrell-mother-of-nigel-farage-aide-reform-uk-donors

Mojack26 Tue 10-Jun-25 19:56:03

Bowing to publuc pressure as it's costing votes! Plus RR been told by her boss to do it! Votes!!!

Silverbrooks Tue 10-Jun-25 19:51:26

Bet those on 35k don't donate allowance to less fortunate.

You would lose your bet. What a petulant thing to say.

If it bothers you so much what have you been saying about it for the last 28 years because that's how long it was paid universally.

And for the hundreth time, the reason it was paid univerally was so that money could get to the people who won't claim Pension Credit.

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 19:31:48

RSALLAN2002

A couple earning just under £70k (and £35k each) will each get the allowance. Indeed, one could be making £100k and the other just under £35k and the poorer one would get it. Doesn't make sense.

Good luck to them! I'm sure the taxes on a couple of bottles of Bolly are quite high. The important thing is nobody falls through the net.

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 19:29:59

Don't worry about me Allsorts. I'm quite content and can afford everything I need. In any case, my financial situation is about to improve quite drastically. Nevertheless, I do worry about those who genuinely struggle - whether they're pensioners or of working age. I can't help feeling that division between older and younger people is being encouraged.

I don't have strong feelings about the WFA, but I do feel the optics have been appalling. Whoever has been advising Rachel Reeves needs presenting with a P45.

RSALLAN2002 Tue 10-Jun-25 19:28:37

A couple earning just under £70k (and £35k each) will each get the allowance. Indeed, one could be making £100k and the other just under £35k and the poorer one would get it. Doesn't make sense.

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 19:24:03

Allira

However, I did say Votes!
That's really scary.

What puzzles me is that there isn't a similar number of people shouting about supporting the restrictions on WFA. People are are usually quite vocal about undeserving benefit recipients. What's so different if a pensioner with a generous pension uses her WFA to go and get her hair cut and dyed? Isn't that a waste of public money?

Allsorts Tue 10-Jun-25 19:14:55

If you are saying you can have a gross income of £35.000 and still get fuel allowance that is greedy and disgusting.,That shoukd not be allowed. You try and manage on what Growstuff has having no doubt worked all her life. Bet those on 35k don't donate allowance to less fortunate.
The majority of people live on half or less than that. They are the ones who should get fuel allowance.

Stella14 Tue 10-Jun-25 19:00:38

Doodledog

keepingquiet

Wonder how many people will post now they got what they wanted?

I will certainly be eligible if it's for those on less than £25 000 pa.

However, on the news now it's just more government baiting... seems they can't do right for doing wrong...

I think that in years to come this government's term will be used in schools as an example of how the media influence opinion. I've been interested in that sort of thing all my life, and have never seen things as bad as this. Maybe that's because there are more media sources than ever before, and because 'ordinary' people have access to them in ways that allow everyone to give their opinions, but it's been poisonous.

It isn’t the media that influenced the change. It’s what Labour MPs were hearing on the doorsteps when out and about in the run up to the council elections, together with the number of councils that changed from Labour due to the ill feeling caused by the previous policy. Labour back benchers were on mass shouting that they would end up losing their seats if the policy wasn’t changed.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 18:54:10

However, I did say Votes!
That's really scary.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 18:53:32

😂

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 18:47:34

Menopauselbitch

Or they are scared of losing votes to Reform.

If Labour act because it's scared of Reform, there's no need to vote for Reform. All Reform needs to do is stand on the sidelines and say "boo" and people will get what they want - allegedly. Fantastic news! Just vote Labour and leave all the scare-mongering to Reform.

Menopauselbitch Tue 10-Jun-25 18:28:16

Or they are scared of losing votes to Reform.

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 18:08:47

Allira My daughter must have been one of the poorest students. If I remember correctly, the definition of "poorest" wasn't in dire poverty. There was a sliding scale, so that students whose parents earned less than about average could apply for a non-repayable maintenance grant and top it up with a repayable loan.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 18:07:22

I know, the Student loans system changed every few years and is very complicated. I feel sorry for those paying such high fees, then loan repayment income tax and NI and probably very high rent. Impossible to save to buy a property for most.

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 18:04:46

Silverbrooks I agree that talk of the £200 is a bit of a red herring. My total income after rent, income tax and council tax is £11,354 per annum, so at the moment I'm below the minimum income suggested by retirementstandardsliving.co.uk. £200 seriously doesn't make much difference. It's £4 a week, which I can save in other ways. Giving me back £4 a week won't make much difference either - I guess I could treat myself to a coffee in a cafe somewhere, but not much else, so I've never thought it worthwhile making a fuss about it. That's real lived experience, not hearsay (or how my neighbour lives).

As you write, there are so many other ways in which the system disadvantages single women, especially those without highly paid jobs. Maybe the fuss about WFA was manufactured, so that people didn't look too closely at the ways women (and poorer people in general) are still at a disadvantage.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 18:04:05

The Government have provided £93 million for higher education students through the access and hardship funds in 2001–02, over four times the amount in 1997–98. The funds are used to provide hardship payments and access bursaries, as well as fee waivers for part-time students on benefit and low incomes, and opportunity bursaries for young disadvantaged students through the excellence challenge programme.The following table shows amounts allocated by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) for students in hardship in 2000–01 and 2001–02. In 2001–02, the funding allocated includes access bursaries for students with children. Access and hardship funds for institutions in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are a matter for the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Executive and the Northern Ireland Executive respectively.

Hansard

Introduction of tuition fees
edit
In 1997, a report by Sir Ron Dearing recommended that students should contribute to the costs of university education. The Labour government under Tony Blair passed the Teaching and Higher Education Act 1998 which introduced tuition fees of £1,000 per academic year to start in the 1998/9 academic year.[6] In addition, maintenance grants were replaced with repayable student loans for all but the poorest students. The total loans provided by the SLC increased from £941 million in the 1997/8 academic year, to £1.23 billion in the next year, when tuition fees took effect.

growstuff Tue 10-Jun-25 17:53:28

Allira The grant was means-tested. Maybe the parents of your youngest were earning too much. I know for an absolute fact that my daughter had a loan for the fees (£3,000 a year) and a means-tested, non-repayable maintenance grant. I was a single parent and her grant was based on my income, which was very low at the time, so she received the maximum grant and a top-up from the university because she had high A level grades.

This compares with my son, who went to university in 2017. He had a loan for his fees (£9,000 a year), but his maintenance loan is repayable at CPI plus (not sure what %). His grades were actually slightly higher than my daughter's, but there was no top-up available. The interest accrues from the moment the loan is taken out. I don't know exactly how much he owes now, but he doesn't have a hope in hell of paying it back, unless he gets an extremely high-paying job (highly unlikely). For him, it's more like a graduate tax for most of his working life. My daughter will have paid hers back by her mid 30s.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 17:51:56

I think women hae always been disadvantaged as far as pensions are concerned.

Silverbrooks Tue 10-Jun-25 17:48:46

RosieandherMaw

They’re calling it the widows’ tax- as a couple would each be entitled to their £35000 threshold and probably at least one if not both might be eligible.
Not a widow(er) who is not getting her late DH’s pension.

Single female pensioners are the pensioners most likely to be on low incomes.

I am living witness to the way that widow(ers) and women's pension rights have been eroded since 2001.

Abolition of State Widows Pension (2001); Equalisation (2010); and the removal of SERPS inheritance for those who were younger than 55 when their spouse died (2016).

We are so obsessed talking about £200 but few talk about the tens of thousands, (hundreds of thousands in my case) of State Pension lost to these changes.

I suspect those who are slightly older, still have their husbands and haven't been (or won't be) affected have no idea of the changes that have affected women like me.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 17:41:54

growstuff

Allira

growstuff

Allira

I still say it's all about economics and that Thatcher, on the whole, left a disastrous legacy for the UK.
Although it was Tony Blair's government which introduced tuition fees and removed the maintenance grant.
🤔

Blair didn't remove the maintenance grant. The tuition fees he introduced were nothing like they are now.

No, I know.

Once introduced, though, it was a stepping stone to increases.

I thought he did remove the maintenance grant, perhaps I'm misremembering. I thought it was 2001

I'm not sure when the maintenance grant was removed, but my daughter started university in 2012 and received a means-tested, non-repayable maintenance grant, so it must have been after that.

My youngest went in 2001 and had a student loan, no grant. She worked too.

Allira Tue 10-Jun-25 17:40:16

MaizieD

Allira

MaizieD

Making derogatory remarks about older generations does you no favours, and does tend to prove the point that younger people are making.

My 'derogatory remarks' apply to those Gnetters who refuse to accept that the post war generation (AKA the Baby Boomers) have had far better life chances than any generation before or since. If that is the face such people present to younger generations I don't blame the young for being antagonistic.

I still say it's all about economics and that Thatcher, on the whole, left a disastrous legacy for the UK.

Post-war generations. Post-war is from 1945 to present day.

Do you mean those fortunate to have been born in 1960 - 1980?

No. I mean those who were born 1945 - 1964, the cohort known as the Baby Boomers.

I have already said that the 1997 - 2010 Labour government just picked up Thatcher's economic baton, though they did manage to improve some areas, such as far higher investment in the NHS and in education. Then Osborne undid any good work they'd done. So whataboutery about student fees really doesn't mean a great deal.

I don't know who decided that these terms should apply, anyway.

Those born post-war ie 9 months+ after May 1945 to about mid 1950/1960s will have had different experiences of childhood and young life in this country to those born 1960ish onwards.

'You've never had it so good' was a myth for many.

I don't believe that encouraging inter-generational strife is a good or positive thing for society either.

But I think I'm wasting time posting.