New ^left^ political party?

If the 'trickle down economy' actually worked, then why is sooooo much dosh languishing in offshore accounts?

David49

The wealth in anyone country isn’t fixed because money moves internationally, the wealth of the UK has reduced considerably because of imports and foreign debt and ownership.

That's still shifting wealth from one owner to another. It's not actually creating it.

David49

growstuff

David49

The AI answer lacked one important aspect, you need to be self employed, paying tax as PAYE, pension and other living expense are a big drag on wealth. Very few employees are going to get to the top, where the real money is, most take the tax advantages of home ownership and serve their time, with no other aim. The risk taking self employed work a lot more hours and have much more scope to have serious wealth.

They still don't create wealth!

Imagine that you have invented some widget manufactured from air, which is totally irresistible. Nearly everybody buys one because it's so desirable. I've no doubt you will become very wealthy. However, you haven't created wealth. What you've done is persuade people to spend their money on your product rather than somebody else's. The total amount of wealth available in the country is the same. Wealth has shifted to one person from many others.

So how do you create wealth ?, dig it out of the ground, or pluck it put of the air.

Get the national bank to create it on its computer.

Menopauselbitch

Caleo

I would like to see Corbyn back to lead a really moral, really socialist Labour party. I am afraid Labour is too populist . We must have taxation sufficient to pay for decent social care, NHS, and education.

Can you please give me an example of a socialist country that’s succeeded? Please don’t say Denmark etc as they are centrist.

I don't think you can argue that the Scandinavian countries are generally more socialist than many other countries (even if socialists would disagree). They tend to be labelled as social democrats - and, yes, I would say they are fairly successful.

China would call itself socialist - even though it's had a mixed economy for decades - and it's been fairly successful too, although I guess it depends on your definition of success. China has the second biggest economy in the world and has raised the quality of life of its population - that's pretty successful.

Oreo

I don’t think the big political parties need worry about the Corbyn/Sultana unholy alliance.
Tho I did read that the Greens will worry.

Probably this is the main group that will vote for Corbyn's new party, if he decides to form one. However, I did know someone who was a Green who said working with Corbyn's supporters was hard work, as they didn't like anyone else on the left and were often downright nasty. I think this little project of Jezza's will go the same way as other far left parties, achieve very little and then split up over ideological purity.

I think you have define what you mean by 'socialists, Menopausalbitch. I suspect you and Caleo have different definitions.

Caleo

I would like to see Corbyn back to lead a really moral, really socialist Labour party. I am afraid Labour is too populist . We must have taxation sufficient to pay for decent social care, NHS, and education.

Can you please give me an example of a socialist country that’s succeeded? Please don’t say Denmark etc as they are centrist.

The wealth in anyone country isn’t fixed because money moves internationally, the wealth of the UK has reduced considerably because of imports and foreign debt and ownership.

growstuff

David49

The AI answer lacked one important aspect, you need to be self employed, paying tax as PAYE, pension and other living expense are a big drag on wealth. Very few employees are going to get to the top, where the real money is, most take the tax advantages of home ownership and serve their time, with no other aim. The risk taking self employed work a lot more hours and have much more scope to have serious wealth.

They still don't create wealth!

Imagine that you have invented some widget manufactured from air, which is totally irresistible. Nearly everybody buys one because it's so desirable. I've no doubt you will become very wealthy. However, you haven't created wealth. What you've done is persuade people to spend their money on your product rather than somebody else's. The total amount of wealth available in the country is the same. Wealth has shifted to one person from many others.

So how do you create wealth ?, dig it out of the ground, or pluck it put of the air.

ronib

Our local private school is closing next week. The notion that the wealthy can afford to live here isn’t entirely true is it? They can afford to live abroad so much better it would seem.

What about the notion that ordinary working people struggle to heat and eat, much less send their children to out of school activities?
My family count ourselves fortunate that we have decent state schools and can afford to take the children to gymnastics, football, basketball, drams and swimming.
Our town has many inhabitants who can’t do any of those expensive activities for their children. It leaves me struggling to feel sympathy for wealthy people who need to go somewhere like Dubai to maintain their privilege

If the Government had suddenly put VAT on my son's school fees, my son would have had to have left. We spent every penny we had to give him the education he deserved as a hard working, aspirational pupil. He didn't have that opportunity in his state school because of the discipline problems and number of temporary staff who had no idea of what they were supposed to be teaching to give continuity...and we live in a "good" school area!

David49

The AI answer lacked one important aspect, you need to be self employed, paying tax as PAYE, pension and other living expense are a big drag on wealth. Very few employees are going to get to the top, where the real money is, most take the tax advantages of home ownership and serve their time, with no other aim. The risk taking self employed work a lot more hours and have much more scope to have serious wealth.

They're not a drag on the country's total wealth, if the Treasury then reallocates that money to somebody else.

David49

The AI answer lacked one important aspect, you need to be self employed, paying tax as PAYE, pension and other living expense are a big drag on wealth. Very few employees are going to get to the top, where the real money is, most take the tax advantages of home ownership and serve their time, with no other aim. The risk taking self employed work a lot more hours and have much more scope to have serious wealth.

They still don't create wealth!

Imagine that you have invented some widget manufactured from air, which is totally irresistible. Nearly everybody buys one because it's so desirable. I've no doubt you will become very wealthy. However, you haven't created wealth. What you've done is persuade people to spend their money on your product rather than somebody else's. The total amount of wealth available in the country is the same. Wealth has shifted to one person from many others.

ronib

Our local private school is closing next week. The notion that the wealthy can afford to live here isn’t entirely true is it? They can afford to live abroad so much better it would seem.

Our local private school, which had been operating on the same site for over a hundred years, closed in 2017.

Like many private schools with boarding facilities, it already had many foreign students. It seems those abroad couldn't afford the fees either.

David49

The AI answer lacked one important aspect, you need to be self employed, paying tax as PAYE, pension and other living expense are a big drag on wealth. Very few employees are going to get to the top, where the real money is, most take the tax advantages of home ownership and serve their time, with no other aim. The risk taking self employed work a lot more hours and have much more scope to have serious wealth.

We're not talking about the self employed, David. I don't think anyone grudges them a comfortable living but as they are unlikely to become super wealthy, living off rents and dividends and tax avoidance schemes they don't alter the initial proposition.

ronib

Our local private school is closing next week. The notion that the wealthy can afford to live here isn’t entirely true is it? They can afford to live abroad so much better it would seem.

An average of 85 private schools in the UK are estimated to have closed every year for the past decade though ronib. New ones start up, pupils move to other private schools which benefit from increased pupil number, and importantly, the number of children in the UK is falling.

I don’t think the big political parties need worry about the Corbyn/Sultana unholy alliance.
Tho I did read that the Greens will worry.

Our local private school is closing next week. The notion that the wealthy can afford to live here isn’t entirely true is it? They can afford to live abroad so much better it would seem.

Iam64

ronib, Sympathy for the very wealthy and zero concern for anyone else. They can afford the vat on their private schools. Choosing to go to Dubai so avoiding paying tax here is not something I admire.

Same Iam64

The AI answer lacked one important aspect, you need to be self employed, paying tax as PAYE, pension and other living expense are a big drag on wealth. Very few employees are going to get to the top, where the real money is, most take the tax advantages of home ownership and serve their time, with no other aim. The risk taking self employed work a lot more hours and have much more scope to have serious wealth.

I don't really understand this view that wealthy people must all be grasping, greedy cultural philistines, who will all run away if asked to pay a bit more tax. I am sure that many of them are perfectly decent people who enjoy the benefits of living here, and wouldn't mind chipping in a bit more.

ronib, Sympathy for the very wealthy and zero concern for anyone else. They can afford the vat on their private schools. Choosing to go to Dubai so avoiding paying tax here is not something I admire.

Money doesn’t inexorably flow up -

It does under the current economic system. Just get AI on the job

Top Level: Wealthy Capital Owners / Shareholders
Own capital: stocks, real estate, businesses

Earn passive income:

📈 Dividends

🏠 Rent

Middle Level: Corporations / Employers
Aim: maximize profits

Reduce costs:

⬇️ Cut wages

✂️ Reduce jobs

🔁 Automate/Outsource

Send profits to shareholders

⬇️ Costs Passed to Workers

Bottom Level: Workers / Laborers
Earn wages → spend on:

🏠 Rent (to landlords)

💳 Debt/loans (to banks)

🛒 Goods/services (from corporations)

Little/no savings → can’t build wealth

Struggle to keep up with rising living costs

Who is benefitting?

Contrary to what you think, ronib, the 'most able' people in the Uk are not 'running away. See the link I posted earlier. If some are doing so then we have plenty of 'able' people to replace them. And, wealth is no indication of 'ableness', however you might like to kid yourself

Hear, hear MaizieD👏👏👏

The few that might leave, if a wealth tax is implemented, are not patriotic; not wedded to the UK; and would most likely be very mobile anyway.

They probably spend huge amounts on accountants that help them pay as little tax as possible, so don’t contribute that much to the overall well-being of the country.

Glad to see the back of ‘em - Dubai, Australia, you’re welcome!

The Patriotic Millionaires group, on the other hand, demonstrates that there are many benefits to living in the UK, as a rich person - and they are willing to do their bit to contribute to the greater good of the country. Well done to them!

ronib

And without the wealthy/very able exactly what is the net gain? Money doesn’t inexorably flow up - it’s hard graft and not everyone can work that hard for all sorts of reasons. But for those who do, there’s no excuse to overtax and under provide on essential services. Dubai operates on a four and a half working week and that’s another incentive to work there. Also it’s a safe low crime environment.

They would have been pretty stupid to waste all that black gold.
It’s like receiving a hefty inheritance, money makes money.