New ^left^ political party?

I think the point is that until someone comes up with a different workable system, then in a mixed capitalist economy such as ours we will alway have the model we have got.

The balance between private and public May differ, largely depending on the colour of the government, but it will remain.

So therefore, it is desirable to have the best system that we can.

How we achieve that is always open to debate 😊, which weirdly I think is a good thing provided any changes actually achieve the desired effect and there isnt change for its own sake, or silly ideological reasons that achieve nothing.

M0nica

MaizieD

How about doing a thought experiment?

If all civil servants, from top to bottom of the hierarchy, were to disappear overnight, how long would it be before we missed them?

We could make it all state employees. That would be even more interesting…

Well that would put paid to the police, firemen, all those in the NHS, job centre employees, all those who process benefit forms, teachers, local authority employees., DVLA, Pensions Agency.

That 10 groups in public service. I m sure others could add many more.

and your point was?

My point was, everyone is happily tearing civil servants and public sector employees to pieces, but where would we be without them?

Pantglas2

My list applies to me Allira. My state pension is paid 4 weekly and my bins in are emptied at the same intervals. I rarely need a doctor. I genuinely couldn’t survive longer than a week or so without the private sector.

Allira is correct, society needs people service employees. Rarely needing a doctor is as fortunate thing that can change in a heart beat
Police, nhs, local authority services and much more are necessary for all our well being

Pantglas2

Of course it would eventually but MaizieD asked how long it would be before we missed the public sector if they disappeared overnight and I believe most people would miss the private sectors I mentioned first.

I will agree that farmers and shop workers are under-valued.

Of course it would eventually but MaizieD asked how long it would be before we missed the public sector if they disappeared overnight and I believe most people would miss the private sectors I mentioned first.

Society would fall apart even if some individuals could survive for a month.

My list applies to me Allira. My state pension is paid 4 weekly and my bins in are emptied at the same intervals. I rarely need a doctor. I genuinely couldn’t survive longer than a week or so without the private sector.

Pantglas2

I’d manage without all of them for a month but I wouldn’t manage without farmers, shop assistants, fuel suppliers for more than a week.

No, I don't think we would manage without public service employees for a month, Pantglas!

People just don't realise how they are working for us.

I’d manage without all of them for a month but I wouldn’t manage without farmers, shop assistants, fuel suppliers for more than a week.

MaizieD

How about doing a thought experiment?

If all civil servants, from top to bottom of the hierarchy, were to disappear overnight, how long would it be before we missed them?

We could make it all state employees. That would be even more interesting…

Well that would put paid to the police, firemen, all those in the NHS, job centre employees, all those who process benefit forms, teachers, local authority employees., DVLA, Pensions Agency.

That 10 groups in public service. I m sure others could add many more.

and your point was?

A good example of failure is the Financial Services Agency that stood by and watch deregulation allow banks to lend 120% of loans and speculate with clients money.
One that needs abolishing is OFWAT, they are supposed to be regulating water companies and failing miserably.

Casdon

No, they often get abolished, taken over or merged though if they are failing. That’s another layer of complexity constantly faced by the public sector - the constant disruption of reorganisation.

Or shut down at the whim of Government - who then wonder what happened to them and why they have to pay more for private firms to do the same work!

The main reason I took a job in the public sector was I was constantly in and out of work, I wasn't qualified for jobs like engineering that were the best paid locally, and it was seen as a job for life. It's not brilliantly paid- we do get the offer of overtime every so often, but no bonuses like some private sector jobs- but there is no compulsory weekend work and night shifts and we get decent leave and pensions. Now I'm 57, this job will suit me until I retire, and there is the option of partial retirement now I'm over 55.
Ideally I would have loved some very highly paid job when I was younger like anyone else, but my late twenties, I knew this was never going to happen.

I totally agree that the constant change with the whims of the different Governments do not help the Civil Service but unlike private business they do not have to worry so much about market forces. My son works high up in one of the Executive Agencies but there are lots of ways that it appears that they are sheltered when things aren't going quite so well unlike your average business.
I doubt we are ever going to completely agree on this matter but I think we can agree that there are problems in both types of organisation.

No, they often get abolished, taken over or merged though if they are failing. That’s another layer of complexity constantly faced by the public sector - the constant disruption of reorganisation.

As they all should be Casdon. The difference being they can’t go bust when it does happen.

Pantglas2

The private sector and the public sector cut corners (and I worked there for 15 years so I am aware).

The huge difference being that when found out the first can be prosecuted and go bust whereas we get a lot of “‘lessons have been learned”, hand wringing and sad faces with the second.

The public sector, can be, and is prosecuted too Pantglas. What happens I think is that the health and safety, environmental health, employment etc. laws are taken extremely seriously, and compliance with the law is much higher. However, just look online to see how many times public sector bodies are prosecuted - there are plenty of examples.

icanhandthemback

Casdon

When we have discussions like that in my family, where almost everybody works in business, some senior and some not, that’s not how the conversation goes at all icanhandthemback. Some businesses have practices that are very questionable (putting it kindly), some are inefficient, and some treat staff appallingly, a double dare to go to tribunal is often employed. It’s not all sunshine and roses, in fact.

There are always going to be businesses that aren't using best practice but usually inefficient businesses go down the pan because there is no-one to prop them up like the Civil Service.

The Civil Service hasn't always been propped up.

Many departments became Executive Agencies and then made to run as businesses under the Thatcher Government right through to the Blair Government.

The private sector and the public sector cut corners (and I worked there for 15 years so I am aware).

The huge difference being that when found out the first can be prosecuted and go bust whereas we get a lot of “‘lessons have been learned”, hand wringing and sad faces with the second.

Pantglas2

“There are always going to be businesses that aren't using best practice but usually inefficient businesses go down the pan because there is no-one to prop them up like the Civil Service.”
Icanhandthemback

So true. One boss explained the difference between being effective (which public services constantly tell you they are) and being efficient.

The first gets the job done.
The second does the same in the least amount of time, costing the least amount of money.

Any business which doesn’t do the second won’t be a business for long.

... and sometimes cutting legal corners. The civil service can't afford to do that.

MaizieD

How about doing a thought experiment?

If all civil servants, from top to bottom of the hierarchy, were to disappear overnight, how long would it be before we missed them?

We could make it all state employees. That would be even more interesting…

Disappear? You mean disappear into thin air?

My daughter is a senior civil servant. I don't think she'd be happy to be made to disappear.

Assuming that she's not physically going to disappear, I don't think she'd be too worried, as he's already been approached by some of the biggest employers in the country. The civil service has rigorous recruitment and training policies, which private employers appreciate.

The big difference? Businesses set their own agenda, and stick to it. It would be much easier for the public sector to do the same if they did not face multiple, frequent and unrealistic demands to change on political whim, and to meet ever increasing compliance requirements. Anybody who has ever worked in the public sector will recognise that I think.

“There are always going to be businesses that aren't using best practice but usually inefficient businesses go down the pan because there is no-one to prop them up like the Civil Service.”
Icanhandthemback

So true. One boss explained the difference between being effective (which public services constantly tell you they are) and being efficient.

The first gets the job done.
The second does the same in the least amount of time, costing the least amount of money.

Any business which doesn’t do the second won’t be a business for long.

icanhandthemback

Casdon

When we have discussions like that in my family, where almost everybody works in business, some senior and some not, that’s not how the conversation goes at all icanhandthemback. Some businesses have practices that are very questionable (putting it kindly), some are inefficient, and some treat staff appallingly, a double dare to go to tribunal is often employed. It’s not all sunshine and roses, in fact.

There are always going to be businesses that aren't using best practice but usually inefficient businesses go down the pan because there is no-one to prop them up like the Civil Service.

Not the case though in reality. Look at the effects of a lack of preparedness at Marks and Spencer and the Co Op, just in the last few weeks. I’m not defending inefficiency at all, but realistically, it happens everywhere.

Getting rid of the OBR would be a good start. MaizieD