Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

I don’t get your point ronib, because it’s clearly better to retain UK trained doctors than to be in a position where they leave the UK and we are having to examine, then employ doctors who are unfamiliar with the UK, particularly if English is not their first language?
Also, anybody who has a UK student loan is expected to repay it if they leave the UK in the repayment period, not just doctors?

This was from Wikipedia.

The term resident doctor currently incorporates the grades of foundation doctor, core trainee (in some specialties, such as surgery, medicine, and psychiatry), and specialty registrar. Before 2007, it included the grades of pre-registration house officer, senior house officer and specialist registrar. During this time, resident doctors will do postgraduate examinations to become members of a medical royal college relevant to the specialty in which they are training, for example membership of the Royal College of Physicians for doctors specialising in internal medicine, membership of the Royal College of Surgeons for doctors specialising in surgery or membership of the Royal College of General Practitioners for doctors specialising in family medicine. Doctors typically may be resident doctors for 8–20 years, and this may be extended by doing research towards a higher degree, for example a Doctor of Philosophy or Doctor of Medicine degree. In England there are around 71,000 resident doctors.

ronib

Fortunately even if doctors work abroad, there’s still an obligation to repay the outstanding student loan. So from one point of view, the completely dedicated doctors from abroad I had recently were probably better than the reluctant UK trained cohort…. So it’s okay to make up the shortfall with doctors and surgeons who can cope with the salaries and working conditions we offer.

But no obligation to work here which leaves us short which is why I'd like to see a system where there is a reward for staying here with the lack of fees in their later years of training. Maybe we could pay their loans for them as part of the pay settlement when they join the NHS for those later years.

Fortunately even if doctors work abroad, there’s still an obligation to repay the outstanding student loan. So from one point of view, the completely dedicated doctors from abroad I had recently were probably better than the reluctant UK trained cohort…. So it’s okay to make up the shortfall with doctors and surgeons who can cope with the salaries and working conditions we offer.

Yes, the name is a misnomer for sure.

Yes, it certainly was.

Now known as Resident Doctors (whatever that means) but, if training places are not sorted out, they will be leaving to become residents in Australia.

Cumbrianmale56

Allira

It is about choice not what we think 23 year olds should be doing.

I don't believe I said it wasn't?

I merely commented that, in my experience, I know of very few young people who marry in their early 20s, as so many of us did years ago.

I'm 57 and can think of some girls I went to school with who were married by the time they were 20. It was mostly girls who had no ambition to leave the area, were pushed by their mothers and grandmothers to marry young like they did, and it was nearly 40 years ago as well. However, even into the noughties, I worked with several girls in that age group who were living with partners before they were 20.
For me, I didn't want this and people who were going away to university or moving away to work by passed this and tended to want partners from away. All barring two very short lived relationships have been with women from outside the local area.

So your experience is different from my experience.

Fair enough.

However I do have sympathy with junior doctors (many of whom are not the least bit junior, but highly experienced medics) .....

Yes, the name is a misnomer for sure.

As to whether that justified dissatisfaction should be a good reason for striking I am less sure.

I think there is a case for Doctors being like the Police and Armed Forces with a "no strike" clause. They should be paid appropriately to reflect that. I also think there should be a scheme where their fees beyond the first 3 years should be paid by the taxpayer with a signed agreement that they will work within the NHS for a set number of years with any fees repaid with interest if they choose not to.

When my late OH trained many moons ago he did not pay fees or maintenance for 2 of the 5 years. It would have been all 5 years if he had not received 3 years worth for a previous degree. He finished with no debt (because I went to work and paid his fees and kept him!).
Nurses and doctors should leave with no debt.
The biggest problem when first at work was being shunted around and about ad lib from job to job afterwards .... so unsettling.
I do know that my OH would not have gone on strike on moral grounds.
However I do have sympathy with junior doctors (many of whom are not the least bit junior, but highly experienced medics) ..... as long as the availability of jobs is so uncertain and pay not comparable with elsewhere it is reasonable for them to be dissatisfied. As to whether that justified dissatisfaction should be a good reason for striking I am less sure.
I have had lots of hospital admissions recently and the vast majority of the junior medics were people whose English was poor so I have to assume that they were born abroad. It is no good the government investing in UK doctor training and then giving the jobs to others.

Footballers should be paid by results. Most of them are a bunch of posers. Nothing will change though, as long as fans pay to watch. I’d like to see doctors paid more, but can the country afford it? 🤔

Iam64

Our local gp friends sent their children to local primary then comps. They’ve all achieved good careers, som3 in medicine. One recently qualified as a surgeon

Nothing wrong with comps! I am a successful product! 😆
I was just mirroring FriedGreenTomatoes' comment about 8 grammar schools in Manchester, (I think).

Allira

^It is about choice not what we think 23 year olds should be doing.^

I don't believe I said it wasn't?

I merely commented that, in my experience, I know of very few young people who marry in their early 20s, as so many of us did years ago.

I'm 57 and can think of some girls I went to school with who were married by the time they were 20. It was mostly girls who had no ambition to leave the area, were pushed by their mothers and grandmothers to marry young like they did, and it was nearly 40 years ago as well. However, even into the noughties, I worked with several girls in that age group who were living with partners before they were 20.
For me, I didn't want this and people who were going away to university or moving away to work by passed this and tended to want partners from away. All barring two very short lived relationships have been with women from outside the local area.

Mamie

Allira

I don't doubt it but when you have spent 5 years studying at your own expense, I do think there should be at least some choice about how far away you have to move to continue your training especially if you have other considerations like family/husband, etc. I suspect that there are a few northerners who can't think of anything worse than being in expensive London where she wanted to be.

I wonder how many young people are married by the age of 23 these days?
In my experience, many young people are anxious to explore the options available, not stay in the locality where they grew up, especially if they've been away at university.

The young doctors will have five years at university, then F1 F2 rotations, so they will be at least 25. The specialist training from F3 to consultant is 8-10 years, so we are not talking about very young people.

Precisely.

It is about choice not what we think 23 year olds should be doing.

I don't believe I said it wasn't?

I merely commented that, in my experience, I know of very few young people who marry in their early 20s, as so many of us did years ago.

Iam64

Our local gp friends sent their children to local primary then comps. They’ve all achieved good careers, som3 in medicine. One recently qualified as a surgeon

Our ex-local MPs children go to State schools, the same comprehensive as my DGC, when he was an MP too.

Our local gp friends sent their children to local primary then comps. They’ve all achieved good careers, som3 in medicine. One recently qualified as a surgeon

I was recently admitted to a Devon hospital by my GP same day as I saw him. I had fantastic care, saw a Doctor on arrival who told me her name.
Good praise for Devon hospitals Sazzl. 👍
We're not the back of beyond, and the Peninsular Medical School, (Plymouth & Exeter), turns out its fair share of excellent doctors too. Medical students are attracted to this part of the world for the healthier quality of life, - beaches, water sports, Dartmoor, hiking etc. Seven grammar schools for doctors' children too, plus many excellent independent schools.
I guess the downside is the distances.

Allira

^I don't doubt it but when you have spent 5 years studying at your own expense, I do think there should be at least some choice about how far away you have to move to continue your training especially if you have other considerations like family/husband, etc. I suspect that there are a few northerners who can't think of anything worse than being in expensive London where she wanted to be.^

I wonder how many young people are married by the age of 23 these days?
In my experience, many young people are anxious to explore the options available, not stay in the locality where they grew up, especially if they've been away at university.

The young doctors will have five years at university, then F1 F2 rotations, so they will be at least 25. The specialist training from F3 to consultant is 8-10 years, so we are not talking about very young people.

As with any profession there are different personalities involved. I think most doctors are pretty dedicated - you’d have to be to stay the course. It isn’t easy, it isn’t a walk in the park and it costs an eye watering amount of money in deferred fees. I wish they didn’t have to strike to get the wages they deserve, I wish there was a better way.

My comments above are to ROWYN

I'm not happy about the comment saying Drs don't see you as a human being! I was recently admitted to a Devon hospital by my GP same day as I saw him. I had fantastic care, saw a Doctor on arrival who told me her name. Had full blood tests ECG, X-ray, blood pressure, pain relief from very nice caring staff. Saw 2 consultants who introduced themselves and talked through test results in a way I could understand. Also discussed planned treatments and made sure I had support at home 3 days later on discharge
Nurses were fantastic and always there for you. Husband said the experience restored his faith in the NHS.

Allira

^I don't doubt it but when you have spent 5 years studying at your own expense, I do think there should be at least some choice about how far away you have to move to continue your training especially if you have other considerations like family/husband, etc. I suspect that there are a few northerners who can't think of anything worse than being in expensive London where she wanted to be.^

I wonder how many young people are married by the age of 23 these days?
In my experience, many young people are anxious to explore the options available, not stay in the locality where they grew up, especially if they've been away at university.

Some of them are, some of them aren't and they are not all 23! Furthermore, lots of young people get married or have children early even if they do want to be a Doctor. Our young lady has been working in clinics throughout her time across the world whenever she got the chance so would have liked to have been where she could more easily be near her elderly parents. It is about choice not what we think 23 year olds should be doing.

Aveline

*I am64* so everyone else should be demanding huge pay rises to make up what we've lost out on?
God help the economy.

That question needs directing to the governments over the past fourteen years who caused the mess

I don't doubt it but when you have spent 5 years studying at your own expense, I do think there should be at least some choice about how far away you have to move to continue your training especially if you have other considerations like family/husband, etc. I suspect that there are a few northerners who can't think of anything worse than being in expensive London where she wanted to be.

I wonder how many young people are married by the age of 23 these days?
In my experience, many young people are anxious to explore the options available, not stay in the locality where they grew up, especially if they've been away at university.

Simply disgraceful!

I am64 so everyone else should be demanding huge pay rises to make up what we've lost out on?
God help the economy.