Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

My son's girlfriend is starting her F1 rotation very soon. I asked her if she is going to go on strike but she feels that is a step too far for her. She's just glad she is going to be earning a wage. There are lots of things that have changed since she started her training. Instead of being able to put down an option for where she is sent for her F1 and F2 years, it is all done by lottery. In the past it was a privilege of those who worked hard to achieve good results who got the best hospitals but she has been sent up North. She was limited too on what she could concentrate upon for her specialism but fortunately, although where she is going is perhaps less of a nice area, she has been lucky to get some of the specialities she wanted to investigate.

Babamaman

When drs qualify they should have to sign a contract stating that they will work for the NHS for a minimum of 5yrs!
And striking should be banned! Just like the police, military !

I agree, doctors and nurses should be treated the same as the military and the police by not being allowed to strike. Also like the military, you train for a specific role and then have to serve for at least 4 years.

When drs qualify they should have to sign a contract stating that they will work for the NHS for a minimum of 5yrs!
And striking should be banned! Just like the police, military !

The BMA should be grateful for the 22% pay rise last year and 5.4% this year, which is still above inflation. I wonder what their union leader gets, considering most of these glorified shop stewards earn at least 100k a year plus everything on expenses and a pension paid by the union.

They are grossly underpaid considering their skills and knowledge, with our lives on the end of the line.
Shouldn’t more money be going into “the kitty” instead of going elsewhere? Easy game I know, but when one thinks that £29,000,000 was spent last year on translators to help illegal immigrants, maybe we should look at our “kindness” again. France is now saying we, as a country are attractive to them because we offer so much.

I’ve known several medical people that have gone to work in Australia for @ 12 months and they all seemed to have much better pay and working conditions and only returned here because of family ties etc.

Please don’t forget that if they work these long hours they are rewarded on top of their salary.

Saturday (midnight to midnight) and any weekday after 8 pm and before 6 am:-

Pay band 1 receives an additional 47% of their base pay, while pay bands 2-9 receive between 30% and 41%.
Sundays and Public Holidays (midnight to midnight):
Pay band 1 receives an additional 94% of their base pay, while pay bands 2-9 receive between 60% and 83%.

Add all that to their basic salary and you have figures of ~£60k!

Lathyrus3

Sorry. I think we possibly agree but I’m finding it difficult to understand what you are actually saying.

I'm not sure how to help you with that.

Whether you agree or not that they deserve more money I still think it's immoral for them to go on strike when so many people are suffering and in need of medical interventions. These people are in a privileged position and because the present govt gave in to their demands so quickly they probably think they will do the same this time. With the NHS in the state it is they have the govt over a barrel.
I think that maybe writing off some of their uni debt in return for working in the UK for so many years post qualification would be a good idea and might well encourage more trainee docs which we desperately need.

Sorry. I think we possibly agree but I’m finding it difficult to understand what you are actually saying.

Surely in most jobs any [work?] during the training period is seen as an “investment”. (Lathyrus3)

What I said was:

It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

I was talking about pay for hours worked by qualified doctors, so have assumed that was your missing word. If you actually meant "training" I am very suprised. I don't know about you but if I did any in-work training I would still be paid for those hours as working hours. Of course any training would be seen as a future investment for both the organisation and the individual.

But doctors are free at some point in their careers to switch to working in private practice where salaries are high. Also it’s perfectly possible to combine both private and NHS practice. £18.65 per hour is for the first year of service and additional payments are given for overtime I believe.
The £100k debt doesn’t need to be repaid anytime soon- over 30 years or so when at some point the debt will be written off if not repaid.
What is most concerning is the lack of professionalism in junior doctors.

There are threads on Mumsnet about this:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors

ronib

Exactly how much do the strikers earn and how much do they want? Perhaps they should consider a change of career to finance?
The last time the junior doctors went on strike, my local hospital was working well without them. It was easier for the senior doctors to get on with the work…..

Starting salary after training, £38, 831

= £746 per week

=£18. 65 per hour.

That is before income tax, mandatory GMC Registration and professional indemnity costs. Foundation year doctors can have student debt as high as £100,000. They also have ongoing costs such as exam fees and courses. Surgical trainees, for example, may spend as much as £70,000 to achieve mandatory requirements for qualification

My cleaner earns £15 an hour (the local going rate) .Excellent as she is, she did not incur a huge student debt or spend 5 to 6 yrs training at university. Nor does she have to continue studying (while working) and paying high costs to take exams and further professional qualifications.

Employees who go on strike don't get paid at all. ( Incredibly, some people don't know that.)

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I am shocked by that Mamie. I did not know that was the situation. I despair. But not as much as the newly qualified doctors I dare say. How utterly dispiriting for them.

It is and they also live with the uncertainty of having to pack up and move across the country at very short notice if a post does become available. That can be every six months.
There are nowhere near enough training posts and young doctors end up doing bank work rather than training as oncologists, neurosurgeons, anaesthetists etc., so you can't really blame them for going to Australia to pusue a career in the specialism they have worked towards for so long. It is a terrible waste of human resources.

PoliticsNerd

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

Foundation training is "a two year programme acting as the bridge between undergraduate medical education and further training to become a general practitioner or specialist." So they are working and training and being paid for their work. I would guess many if us, if we have gone into hospital, have been treated by these doctors. It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an "investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

Surely in most jobs any during the training period is seen as an “investment”.

Factory and shop workers have a training period during which they are paid and the manufacture or retail organisation recognises this as an investment in their work force.
Sometimes it works and inevitably sometimes there is a fallout rate when both sides realise the investment has failed or the trainee moves to another firm.

I don’t understand what you think is ‘odd” about that.

I am shocked by that Mamie. I did not know that was the situation. I despair. But not as much as the newly qualified doctors I dare say. How utterly dispiriting for them.

Iam64

Allira, your Consultant had presumably worked in the nhs many years before going to Australia for a couple of years. My concern is our nhs losing many young doctors to Australia, Germany and more. A £50,000 welcome to pay off half your student debt, then a bigger salary and much better working conditions.

He came back because he didn't like working over there.
I've only met him since he returned.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

The young doctors desperately want posts and training in the NHS, but there are not enough jobs for them, because they are going to doctors from overseas. As I said upthread the UK is the only country in the world that does not give priority to the doctors it has trained.
I am surprised that people are not shocked by this.

In 2008 the NHS paid out £900 million for negligence. In 2022 the amount had risen to £2.17 billion. The NHS seems an ever expanding drain on the taxpayer.
To even think of linking pay to efficiency is clearly a non starter.

So do I Maizie, sadly.

It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an "investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

I think it's just spin to make us feel that junior doctors are ungrateful troublemakers.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

Foundation training is "a two year programme acting as the bridge between undergraduate medical education and further training to become a general practitioner or specialist." So they are working and training and being paid for their work. I would guess many if us, if we have gone into hospital, have been treated by these doctors. It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an "investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

PoliticsNerd

Whitewavemark2

I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

He is. But he has supported some very right-wing view of late. Perhaps, like many older people, he is economically left and socially right?

More likely economically right and socially left when you think about it PoliticsNerd!

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Perhaps after all the training here, doctors should sign up to working for the NHS for ‘x’ number of years? That seems only fair - rather than taking their newly qualified skills abroad?

👋 thank you nanna8 it’s lovely to be back!

Surely that is only "fair" if everything was free - as it would have been for Lord Winston and a large proportion of the Gnetters who went to university. Many of them, considering the age demographic suggested by GN for this forum, will not have paid fees and, therefore, not have had the debt younger doctors do.