Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

I can see no value in blaming medical malpractice on either the Conservatives or Labour. Blame must lie firmly with medical professionals? Politicians are not in the delivery room! Also I note that some ethnic minorities are badly served with maternity care. Again this is for the medical profession to address.

foxie48

Ronib the maternity provision in some hospitals is dreadful. Goodness knows why but when you are spending more money on compensation than on the service itself, you know there's a huge problem!

It hasn't improved in the years since my DC were born.
And I thought my last experience was dire, thankfully the baby was all right but no thanks to the staff who were nowhere to be seen.

Beyond words icanhandthemback.

ronib

£37 billion since 2019. How can this be?

Because there are so many mistakes made. Some of these are due to not having a regular midwife who sees you throughout the entire pregnancy which is why my grandchild was still born. Each midwife looked at previous measurements and assumed that it was a difference in the way things were measured from person to person. My family had a good case for suing but agreed with the hospital authority in our area would introduce the record keeping that another authority used which had a dramatic affect on stillbirths.
At the hospital where my other grandchild was born, it was the most nerve wracking experience with the midwife sounding alarms regularly and a Dr putting their head around the door, giving a brief instruction before disappearing again. By the time they did the emergency operation (after trying forceps) the baby was compromised with the cord wrapped around its neck. Minutes later and he would have been dead or severely brain damaged. A friend of hours had the same experience at the same hospital and she nearly haemorrhaged to death let alone the distress to the baby.
We all know that pregnancy is precarious but the percentage of cases in our family where it was either tragic or nearly so, makes me believe that the service needs overhauling. My midwife friend agrees.

£37 billion since 2019. How can this be?

Ronib the maternity provision in some hospitals is dreadful. Goodness knows why but when you are spending more money on compensation than on the service itself, you know there's a huge problem!

The Guardian has an article today about the amount of compensation paid out in medical negligence cases, particularly in maternity. It makes for the most depressing read.

I'm not angry just resigned that our services don't function as well as they should. The police were good but open about thier chances of getting a conviction. It's the fact she was kicked whilst on the floor by a woman that really upsets me. It could have been so much worse.

foxie48 I'm so sorry for that attack on your daughter, and I can understand your anger. Unfortunately police numbers were run down and the resources just aren't there to pursue cases where identification isn't possible. Even when the police put in hundreds of hours of work investigating a crime CPS often decline to prosecute if they don't foresee a good chance of a conviction.
I agree your doctor daughter deserves to be paid properly for the work she does, as do the nurses, midwives and all NHS front line staff, I just think it will need a few years of increases to get there. It really can't be achieved over just two or three years, hard as that is. I for one appreciate all our emergency services having family members involved in several areas.

Same here. Older loved ones facing cancer, dementia, poor mobility and more
Two A and E visits with head injuries (boys) and our nine year old being investigated for possible auto immune problems. Staff unfailingly professional, skilled. Patient and kind. Free at the source of need

I honestly don't know Iam64 but there seems to be so many people who will "rubbish" the very people that we rely on when we are at our most vulnerable without a shred of evidence that they deserve it. In every profession there are people who fall below the standards expected but the majority of people don't and when they do, how often is it because they are overworked, under resourced or under valued? I've recently had too many encounters with the NHS, it's not always been perfect but I have generally been dealt with kindly, professionally and with good humour (even at 04.00 a.m. by an A&E doctor who looked more in need of a bed than I did).

Another to the point post foxie48. The government over fourteen years demonstrated contempt for public servants. I wonder how many of the negative comments directed towards teacher, nurses, social workers, probation, police officers and resident doctors has been influenced by that?

Tbh Rosie51 the police really only offer an emergency cover now. My older daughter was attacked walking home in a residential area, pushed to the ground, kicked by a man and a woman who stole her phone and tried to take her handbag. She had several ribs shattered, a pneumothorax, broken nose and was badly bruised, police came following a 999 call from someone who witnessed my daughter in a state of distress, covered in blood. Bottom line was she was not seriously injured enough to warrant a search for the assailants because she couldn't reliably identify them as they attacked her from behind. She spent nearly a week in hospital and tbh is still dealing with the emotional trauma of being attacked.
I really don't want to see another doctor's strike but they have definite grievances which need to be addressed. I do get defensive when I read posts that suggest they are paid enough, should stop complaining, should have to work for the NHS for x number of years etc etc because most of the posters clearly have no knowledge of what it's like to be a resident doctor in today's NHS! My younger doctor daughter has had pretty much every body fluid on her, been physically and verbally attacked just doing her job, had to break the most dreadful news to parents and partners, witnessed babies being born dead and young people dying with horrendous injuries following accidents and now spends her day job keeping people alive whilst they have (often) life saving surgery. She deserves to be treated well and paid properly.

foxie48 Oh I didn't mean that doctor's shouldn't be able to strike, I just wish they wouldn't. I do think that for the three groups that are forbidden by law to strike, their pay and conditions should reflect this and be such that they aren't so severely disadvantaged because they can't cause disruption. Denying them the right afforded to everybody else surely warrants such consideration? Could the police strike but maintain 'emergency only' cover like the other areas you mention? No attending shoplifting episodes, house break-ins where the thief is no longer present, vandalism etc They'd be there in a heartbeat for violent attacks and the like.

Elective provision being hit can have unforeseen consequences for patients further down the line, including I'd imagine conditions becoming untreatable. During strike action it could be better to be an emergency than routine, a worrying thought.

I expect most of us are already doing the things suggested by ronib.
I’m still much more critical of the previous governments than the current one, no surprise there
Our local hospital is already reducing waiting lists as a result of current govt policies

Rosie51 Police and prison officers maintain law and order so it seems reasonable to me to make it unlawful for them to strike as it would potentially cause a threat to life and property. officers. The military also are not allowed to strike
Doctors together with a number of other employment groups such as Fire and rescue, border force, education, transport , nuclear decommissioning are subject to minimum service levels ie measures must be put in place continue a service which prevents threat to life and property. That's why when doctors go on strike, there is always enough staff to provide emergency cover. It is elective provision which gets hit.
As I keep saying, I don't support this latest strike but I am trying to explain why there is a high level of dissatisfaction which is fueling militancy. Taking away the right to strike would not change that and IMO would create even more dissatisfaction. Very few countries ban doctors from taking strike action, do we really want to join China, Kenya and Sri Lanka?

Iam64

ronib do you have any constructive suggestions

Yes of course I do Iam64 but do you mean constructive or politically acceptable?
For a start - use AI and information on the NHS website. Use the local pharmacy. Phone 111 for guidance - a most efficient and compassionate service, use Walk in Clinics and A&E when guided by 111.
Use private health care when necessary.

Avoid gps and first year medics maybe?
Be critical of government policies?

foxie48 I do sympathise with the treatment resident doctors endure regarding placements etc but nevertheless think this pay claim is totally unrealistic. I had no idea how large the employer contribution to pensions was, that really is way over the top. Yes they deserve better pay but after last year's award I think the shortfall has to be achieved over a larger number of years.
You say When you take away a person's right to strike, it doesn't improve anything does it? I'm interested how you regard it being illegal for the police and prison officers to strike? They too work shifts, weekends, bank holidays. The police can have leave cancelled at a moment's notice with no compensation for financial loss, I don't know if that applies to prison officers. I do think the lack of ability to call a strike is reflected in the way their pay and pensions are handled.

ronib do you have any constructive suggestions

ronib

The gripe is that first year doctors now have to pay for accommodation. Nothing to do with need. visgirl

I haven't seen or heard any gripes about paying for accommodation, it's 17 years since it was free I doubt many of today's resident doctors ever knew it was free that long ago. There's not much available though, it's pretty patchy and not great quality generally but as it's often only needed for a four month placement, doctors just put up with it. Daughter's partner used it for one placement that was far too far away to travel but he came back to the house they shared on every possible opportunity, so effectively was paying for two lots of accommodation!

I am a bit conflicted on this. I used to work for the NHS in a middle management administrative role and was amazed to find that I earned far more than some junior doctors which I always felt was very wrong given their years of training an d level of responsibility compared to mine. Having said that, I suppose they do go into the career knowing what the salary is and have the potential to earn much more as they progress up the career ladder.

I was taken to A&E during the last junior doctors’ strike and everything seemed to be working very smoothly although of course it did put pressure on the senior doctors.

Visgirl my daughter is doing an on call weekend ATM, she doesn't get a room. I think the difference with resident doctors and other health workers is that they can choose the shifts they want to work once they have graduated and are trained and are paid according to the hours they work and the degree to which they are "unsocial". There seems to be absolutely no pattern to resident doctors shifts or the number of hours they work in a week. It does make family life and social life very difficult.

Footballers are not paid from public money. It is the choice of their fans to waste inordinate amounts of money on their support.

Visgir1

Junior /Resident Doctors work shifts, days or nights. Exactly the same as Nurses, PathLab Staff, Radiographers, to name a few. They do not need accommodation on site, they do not do on call, if they do a Room with a bed is supply.

Do all those professionals get sent to different placements though which may be miles from home. I think that is the main problem rather than needing accommodation when working a shift.

A friend of mine has just retired from the Nursing Profession early. She loved her job, was enthusiastic about it for most of her life but in the end she started to hate it because it was such a stressful place to work. I think the dissatisfaction is fairly wide spread.

ronib

foxie48 yes of course disgruntlement goes well beyond Labour removing free accommodation. But it doesn’t ever seem to go away does it?
Taiwan has a no strike health service- why don’t we?

Perhaps because we are not Taiwanese with a history of living under martial law for nearly 40 years? Interestingly, although Taiwan has an excellent health service with very high patient satisfaction levels but Doctors are not very happy and there's evidence that since the pandemic the quality of care and treatment has slipped. There are shortages of doctors in key specialities and evidence of burnout and death through "overwork" known as "karoshi". (Amazing, they even have a word for it!) When you take away a person's right to strike, it doesn't improve anything does it? It doesn't make staff more efficient, work harder, raise morale or build goodwill it just has the potential to do the exact opposite.