Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

Many doctors retire early because they can afford to.
The employer contribution to their pension is 23%. Imagine the size of their pension pots! I’ve never heard of anyone receiving this size of employer contribution in the private sector
It was suggested on the radio that the government could reduce this to maybe 19%(still huge) and use this money to increase their salaries now. No extra funding would need to be found. I think it’s a great idea

theworriedwell

But doctors are treated differently to him in various ways, length of training, no salary in year 4 or 5, different working conditions (two of mine are teachers and have never had to work nights or , Christmas day for example). Why should one difference be more important than all the others.

As a former teacher, I'm envious of teachers who don't work through the night and at weekends to get through the work - I often did.

Anyway, that's not the point really. I see this suggestion as a perk to put more in doctors' pockets without actually increasing their pay and simultaneously keeping them in the NHS - there are certain merits - but there always unforeseen consequences, such as how other graduates would view it.

But doctors are treated differently to him in various ways, length of training, no salary in year 4 or 5, different working conditions (two of mine are teachers and have never had to work nights or , Christmas day for example). Why should one difference be more important than all the others.

The point I'm making is that my son isn't even paying back the original loan. All his payments go on interest, so he's resigned to paying a "graduate" tax for most of his working life, when the original capital loan will be written off. In his case, if interest payments were to be abolished, he might stand a chance of paying it all back and, eventually, being free of the loan. I'm not sure how he'd feel about doctors' being treated differently.

Google says teach first pays up to £30k a year, don't teach a full timetable. Doesn't sound bad. First year doctor on just over £32k doing 48 hrs and with shorter holiday and 2 or 3 years more at uni.

My son has a massive student loan. Some of it is a postgraduate loan, which has a different system. His repayments don't cover the interest charges, so it increases every year. However, none of the figures correspond to the ones you quoted. I'm curious more than anything.

icanhandthemback

growstuff

www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

My son's student loan gives me some of the information and a Google search. You have to ask specific questions to get the answers for when things are charged and credited although I knew that from my first born's student loan but I just wanted to check it was the same with Plan 2, the last son's loan.

I was wondering which plan it is because none of the actual figures match.

MayBee70

To be fair one of my doctors told me that many doctors have to take early retirement because of stress. Having said that, much as I supported the doctors last year and felt that a case could be made for the pay rise they had I’m angry with them this time given that everyone is struggling financially.

Me too. Supported them last year & that pay rise was essential. But it was a hefty one, way above inflation, & they must be relatively better off.
I would support gentle increases to re-adjust the many years where their wages fell further & further behind doctors abroad, and equivalent positions here that are irreplaceable until 5-9 years' training has been done.
What they're asking for in the current climate makes me angry. & more strikes will harm the government & Labour are their best chance of getting a fair wage for their worth.

theworriedwell. That's interesting. One of my GCs is a teacher. 3 yr degree, then 2 yrs training on the job with Teach First which is a tough course, low pay, miles from home, then a year as 'newly qualified' in different job before on proper pay scale. Her parents currently paying off student loan. I think those in her and similar shoes would be justified in feeling irked if their university contemporaries doing medicine had their undergraduate loans written off.
Same sort of thing prob applies to lawyers as well.

growstuff

www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

My son's student loan gives me some of the information and a Google search. You have to ask specific questions to get the answers for when things are charged and credited although I knew that from my first born's student loan but I just wanted to check it was the same with Plan 2, the last son's loan.

Waiving the student loan for doctors working for NHS would encourage UK students to train as doctors but you would have to extend it to nurses as well.

I think it’s a good positive step and shouldnt be dismissed we need more UK medics.

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

One of mine is a nurse, they got a bursary. Don't know if that applies to other HCP. At the end of 3 years they were recruited to private sector. Still out earning friends who did medicine. Got their masters paid for and time off to do it. Don't think they are wasting time worrying about other people's loans.

ronib

foxie48 AI states that foreign doctors are paying off student debt if working here.

Yes just like British trained doctors are still paying off student debt if they go abroad to work. Debt doesn't get written off because you relocate

www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

Incidentally, where do you get those figures from? I know the schemes have changed over the years, but I can't see any scheme which tallies with the figures you've given.

I agree with your last sentence.

The point is, icanhandthemback, that graduates who pay back their loans more quickly end up paying less in total.

Actually, my son has to pay a certain level of interest (7.6%) until his wages are over £40,000, a decent wage but not a king's ransom. Once he earns more, he is charged 3% more interest than students on £39,999. So, if a Dr earns more, they will also pay the higher interest and will be unable to pay their loans quicker without taking a big hit on their wages. So, not only does their training last longer than the average student but they are hit with higher interest rates on that extra money. Furthermore, although you pay your interest monthly for the whole year, the amounts are not credited until the end of the financial year. However the interest is calculated and added to the loan monthly. Personally, I think the whole scheme is immoral and not a level playing field at all for any student.

Just had the best hospital experience with my 2 year old granddaughter…. As usual gp complete don’t bother us, 111 exemplary….. and A&E great!!

I've just seen that removing the interest payments would be linked to working for the NHS, which isn't such a bad idea. Effectively, it becomes a top for NHS doctors, which is positive.

foxie48

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

I don't think there's any intention to wipe the debt, it's about not adding interest tbh surely it's only doctors who do five years training and then have to work for the NHS to further their training? Dentists can go into private work as soon as they qualify. Currently, interest is charged at CPI not RPI perhaps worth changing that?

I think the interest rates should be adjusted for all graduates, but that won't happen because the loans have been privatised and the interest rates are how the owners of the debt are making their money.

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

They might be the highest, but it's not necessarily true that they pay back the most. The real killer with student loans is the cumulative interest rate, which increases with loans which take longer to repay. Repayment of loans is linked to income, so it could be that doctors pay their loans back more quickly than average graduates. In that case, their loans are costing doctors less.

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

I don't think there's any intention to wipe the debt, it's about not adding interest tbh surely it's only doctors who do five years training and then have to work for the NHS to further their training? Dentists can go into private work as soon as they qualify. Currently, interest is charged at CPI not RPI perhaps worth changing that?

Foreign means not from this country, surely ie a from overseas or from abroad?
The meanings are synonymous.

foxie48

What I mean by "foreign" is a doctor who is trained abroad but it may have been better to use the adjective International or Overseas. Currently about a third of doctors working in the NHS are from overseas and in 2022 over half of the doctors joining the NHS were international medical graduates.

Maybe that is because a lot of Doctors doing their medical degree come from abroad. Then after 5 years, the British doctors may find themselves without a job because the lottery system means that places are allocated based on a number rather than being the best, residency or anything else as it is all anonymous. What a way to run a railroad!