Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

What I mean by "foreign" is a doctor who is trained abroad but it may have been better to use the adjective International or Overseas. Currently about a third of doctors working in the NHS are from overseas and in 2022 over half of the doctors joining the NHS were international medical graduates.

Sorry, those posts were further back. My device had not updated. But the point is still the same.

Wouldn't it be helpful to define "foreign doctors" in the last two post. All countries will vary and "foreign" is not an homogeneous group.

Yes that’s true Iam64 but even cats and dogs learn to live with each other. I am hopeful that Wes Streeting is able to find some common ground for a resolution. There seems to be a lot wrong morally with the way the health system operates but I don’t see any appetite for real change.

ronib

Lawyer and bankers can work well in excess of 48 hours. A law degree takes 3 years plus is it one or two years extra and another two years to become fully qualified. Engineering too can be a long haul to full chartered status and modern living is highly dependent on engineers. It’s not that simple theworriedwell

Lawyers work hard and continue to develop skills but - comparing them with doctors is like comparing dogs n cats

ronib

foxie48 AI states that foreign doctors are paying off student debt if working here.

The UK and US have the highest level of student loans. I think you'll find that the countries that most foreign doctors come from have lower living costs (eg Indai, Pakistan, Romania, Nigeria etc) so if they have outstanding loans to repay the monthly amount is significantly lower than the average home student. Interestingly, Streeting is considering removing the interest on doctor's student loans provided they are working in the NHS. I think that is an excellent idea, especially as it's based on CPI not RPI.

foxie48 Mon 14-Jul-25 07
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foxie48 AI states that foreign doctors are paying off student debt if working here.

Ronib foreign doctors aren't paying off student debt so effectively take home more pay than a English or Welsh doctor. Scotland has a bursary system that grad med students can apply for which can give them up to £16k p.a. if they agree to apply to do their foundation training and first two years after that in Scotland However, as I have said at the very beginning of this thread, I don't support the doctors present pay claim, I doubt the NHS can afford it but that doesn't mean that they are not underpaid for the level of training, working conditions (which are incredibly disruptive to having anything of a home or social life) and the amount of debt that most doctors carry into their working life.

Lawyer and bankers can work well in excess of 48 hours. A law degree takes 3 years plus is it one or two years extra and another two years to become fully qualified. Engineering too can be a long haul to full chartered status and modern living is highly dependent on engineers. It’s not that simple theworriedwell

ronib

Well the majority of graduates in their early 30s are in this category too not just resident doctors but unlikely to stop working for 5 days at a time. theworriedwell

The majority don't have as much in loans, majority can work during degree but difficult with med degree, most degrees aren't 5 or 6 years. Normal working week isn't 48 hours. Lots of differences.

There are some careers with exceptional remuneration for graduates in their early to mid 30s but graduate nurses, teachers, and engineers for example have salaries in line with resident doctors if they are lucky. Bankers, lawyers, accountants, vets, dentists probably make more.
The young doctors I know don’t mind working abroad and also doctors from abroad don’t mind working here. Interesting ….. foxie48

Most people’s income has eroded in recent years not just doctors. Many other professions would have a good case to strike. This is greed as was the train drivers’ strike. All extremely well paid as it was.

Good point. foxie48 Thu 17-Jul-25 15:44:15

ronib

Well the majority of graduates in their early 30s are in this category too not just resident doctors but unlikely to stop working for 5 days at a time. theworriedwell

Most graduates are not tied to one employer and can move around to get a better salary and working conditions, unfortunately the only way doctors can do that is to work abroad or move out of medicine. Thankfully, most doctors want to be doctors and have invested a huge amount of time, effort and money to achieve that aim.

Anyone joining the doctor's pension scheme after 2015 gets a pension based on career average not on final salary. This is no where near as generous as the final salary pension that doctors used to get. My daughter pays 12.5% of salary as a pension contribution. She was a post grad medical student and didn't start earning until she was 26 and up to that time she was wracking up loans that have to be repaid out of salary. I think, perhaps, some are way behind in their knowledge of current salaries for highly trained graduates and base some of their comments on information which is no longer correct.

Well the majority of graduates in their early 30s are in this category too not just resident doctors but unlikely to stop working for 5 days at a time. theworriedwell

Oreo

We know that resident doctors, as they now prefer to be called, have to do years of academic work and training but they are handsomely paid as they progress up the ladder ending up with excellent pay and pensions.
If the BMA wasn’t so very left wing and militant then I don’t think they would come out on strike again this year.

Ending up with a great salary isn't much help if you're in your 30s trying to pay your student loans, pay a mortgage, feed your kids.

Well thanks to my interaction here on Gnet, I have written to my mp with a suggestion that medics should be stopped from calling strikes…. I doubt that he will take my suggestion seriously but……

We know that resident doctors, as they now prefer to be called, have to do years of academic work and training but they are handsomely paid as they progress up the ladder ending up with excellent pay and pensions.
If the BMA wasn’t so very left wing and militant then I don’t think they would come out on strike again this year.

Iam64

Dog trainers charge £50 or £60 per hour. Dog boarding £60 for each dog overnight. Cleaners and gardeners £30 -£50
Personal Trainers £50 per hour. My hair stylist drives a Ferrari

Yes, they’re self employed so need to insure and set up pension plans. They’re in charge of their work life balance and much less likely to be verbally or physically assaulted than a doc in A and E

Most self employed people have a private pension that they'll claim when they retire. I'd imagine someone on £50 an hour will be putting a considerable sum into their private pension so they can retire early, or go part time in their fifties. If someone is prepared to pay a personal trainer £50 an hour, it's probably because the trainer is very good or lives in an area that is very expensive like London.

My husband was admitted to hospital during a strike and I can assure you that he was well treated. I spoke to a young doctor , as I was helping to calm said husband during a really painful procedure, who said that she would never strike and she did not agree with the actions of her colleagues. So grateful for her support and care.

I think some of ronib’s posts show just why Junior Doctors feel undervalued. Senior Doctors might have managed whilst others were on strike but waiting lists increased, non emergency procedures were cancelled as were appointments and people like my mother didn’t get their treatments evaluated because there was no one to order tests or change antibiotics. That meant a longer stay in hospital.

Ronib all elective work was cancelled in hospitals. I was admitted to A&E during the strikes (Jan 5th to be exact) following a serious accident. I was treated extremely well, seen quickly by a consultant and admitted to a surgical ward for nearly two weeks. I saw several patients come and go and they had all been admitted following emergency surgery for a condition that had become life threatening whilst they had been on a waiting list or in the case of two very elderly ladies, they had been sent home following an operation and returned with complications (possibly sent home too early?) No, hospitals didn't run better, they ran on an emergency only basis. That's not a proper health care system!