Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

It is like giving into a blackmailer. They will always be back to demand more.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Resident doctor strikes are poised to cost Britain almost £13m for each day of walkouts, according to the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR).

Crikey.
Add in longer waiting lists too after the 5 days.

We're only just beginning to cut waiting lists and the NHS took a long time to recover from the pandemic, so the BMA have decided to move us back to square one. I think the government should give the resident doctors a decent pay rise, then ban them from going on strike.

Resident doctor strikes are poised to cost Britain almost £13m for each day of walkouts, according to the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR).

Crikey.
Add in longer waiting lists too after the 5 days.

Learning (constantly) on the job.
Doctors say it’s “see one, do one, teach one”.
Sharing of knowledge. ✔️

Nothing to do with salary more likely very difficult to run a household, three small children and a very demanding job… with husband working Christmas Day etc icanhandthemback

ronib

*Iam64*no of course not. However a successful working career as a gp with 3 children doesn’t always work out for everyone. Interesting to see that female medics of a menopausal age do sometimes resign according to AI. In fact I seem to know more doctors leaving the profession than staying the course…..

All the more reason they need to earn more then if they are going to be scuppered by being a mere woman.

foxie48 and her private practice income potentially is?

Just an aside for those of you who say, but they knew the salary when they decided to become a doctor. My daughter started her training as a graduate entrant with a first class honours degree from a first class uni in 2010. By the time she qualified a doctors salary had eroded by nearly 15%, during her foundation years it eroded by a further 3%, by the time she had passed her part one specialist training it had eroded by a further 8%. How on earth would she have known that when she started the difficult and competitive journey of becoming a doctor? She's a very clever dedicated young woman but she's not psychic.

Iam64no of course not. However a successful working career as a gp with 3 children doesn’t always work out for everyone. Interesting to see that female medics of a menopausal age do sometimes resign according to AI. In fact I seem to know more doctors leaving the profession than staying the course…..

icanhandthemback

ronib

icanhandthemback well I guess it’s all a question of expectation not forgetting that the NHS is publicly funded unlike your son’s job I imagine. I don’t think that the starting salary for F1 and F2 is that bad. I hope your son’s girlfriend is able to continue her medical career should she start a family!

Yes, she will, just like her medical professional parents before her. 🤔

ronib, you seem to be going back to the dark ages when women who had children had to resign from employment. Surely yiu aren’t suggesting it’s a waste of money to train female professionals because they may have children? My female GPs all had children at the same time I did, we all returned to work after maternity leave
Same applied to teachers, lawyers, architects and more

Here they are!

ronib

icanhandthemback well I guess it’s all a question of expectation not forgetting that the NHS is publicly funded unlike your son’s job I imagine. I don’t think that the starting salary for F1 and F2 is that bad. I hope your son’s girlfriend is able to continue her medical career should she start a family!

Yes, she will, just like her medical professional parents before her. 🤔

icanhandthemback

ronib

More likely that a four year masters is needed for graduate program employment so the difference is £30k in lost earnings according to your argument icanhandthemback. I was struck by a conversation with an engineering graduate who was truly grateful for the learning opportunities and further training he had been given on his graduate training scheme. Also he seemed to realise that there was so much more that he needed to learn even after his masters. Medics take note.

Even so, £30k is a lot of money. Also, lots of graduates who enter a Programme have done a sandwich degree where they have earned money for up to a year so don't need the Masters Degree because they have experience.
Do you really think that Medics don't realise they have much to learn after their first 5 years? Why shouldn't they get a decent wage whilst they add to their knowledge just like a graduate. I know my son's wages have risen significantly in the 2 years he has been in that position and will continue to do so. He will also have far more chance of promotions over the next 10 years, more so than his Dr girlfriend.

Well said.

Carson is correct about nhs pensions. The same applies for other public servants. Lower wages and poorer pensions will lead to an exodus. Many will go to agencies with much higher salaries and the ability to refuse, or walk out if they don’t like the pressure.

icanhandthemback well I guess it’s all a question of expectation not forgetting that the NHS is publicly funded unlike your son’s job I imagine. I don’t think that the starting salary for F1 and F2 is that bad. I hope your son’s girlfriend is able to continue her medical career should she start a family!

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Iam64

They are ‘qualified’. Your post suggests they’re some kind of apprentices. Other countries like Australia wouldn’t be offering £50,000 welcome handshakes alongwith much larger salaries to unqualified doctors

But not of course the platinum pension schemes Iam.

There is no platinum pension scheme for new starters in the NHS these days FriedGreenTomatoes2, it’s not better than the pension schemes in Australia either. As there is no state pension equivalent unless you are on your uppers there, the company and NHS equivalent pension schemes are good, and most people do seek professional advice, and save for retirement.

ronib

More likely that a four year masters is needed for graduate program employment so the difference is £30k in lost earnings according to your argument icanhandthemback. I was struck by a conversation with an engineering graduate who was truly grateful for the learning opportunities and further training he had been given on his graduate training scheme. Also he seemed to realise that there was so much more that he needed to learn even after his masters. Medics take note.

Even so, £30k is a lot of money. Also, lots of graduates who enter a Programme have done a sandwich degree where they have earned money for up to a year so don't need the Masters Degree because they have experience.
Do you really think that Medics don't realise they have much to learn after their first 5 years? Why shouldn't they get a decent wage whilst they add to their knowledge just like a graduate. I know my son's wages have risen significantly in the 2 years he has been in that position and will continue to do so. He will also have far more chance of promotions over the next 10 years, more so than his Dr girlfriend.

Of all the medical students that I see for exams the majority are not British. I suppose the university relies heavily on foreign students paying the exorbitant foreign national fees. Thus there will be fewer UK doctors in the end. Workforce planning needs to gear up starting at first year uni entrance to medical school. If the govt has to pay more to unis for UK students then so be it.

Iam64

They are ‘qualified’. Your post suggests they’re some kind of apprentices. Other countries like Australia wouldn’t be offering £50,000 welcome handshakes alongwith much larger salaries to unqualified doctors

But not of course the platinum pension schemes Iam.

Doctors are effectively bound to the NHS until they are consultants and that takes about 10 years sometimes longer. If they work abroad most countries prioritise their home grown doctors so they are back of the queue but the additional pay and better conditions can make up for it. If we tie our resident doctors into working for the NHS, how ethical would it be to then employ doctors trained abroad?
I spent yet another night in A&E this week, my assessment of ethnicity based on many years working in a diverse population was that a very high percentage of the staff ( including doctors) were that they were probably born overseas. Overseas doctors are effectively better paid because they are not paying back student loans which can be a bit chunk of pay, add to that the professional fees, indemnity insurance and ongoing costs for exams which often are in London or another major city and it all adds up. At least doctors repay their student loans which many don't.

More likely that a four year masters is needed for graduate program employment so the difference is £30k in lost earnings according to your argument icanhandthemback. I was struck by a conversation with an engineering graduate who was truly grateful for the learning opportunities and further training he had been given on his graduate training scheme. Also he seemed to realise that there was so much more that he needed to learn even after his masters. Medics take note.

Earthmother9

But they know what they sign up for when training, they know what the wages are and in a way it's an apprentiship with the big money coming at the end when qualified. They are not worth what they ae asking for. Not until qualified. They should get back to work and learn how to put the patients first.

They've already done 5 years training and clinical practice before they start working full time so they are already qualified. By the time they are F1's they are doing rotations to see what they want to specialise in. Yes, they are still learning but so is anyone taking on different roles. If you were on a graduate programme, the chances are you'd have been earning at least £30k for the 2 years after a 3 year degree. That makes £60k before a medical graduate can start earning. It hardly seems a lot to ask to pay a reasonable wage to the Dr's on that basis.

They are ‘qualified’. Your post suggests they’re some kind of apprentices. Other countries like Australia wouldn’t be offering £50,000 welcome handshakes alongwith much larger salaries to unqualified doctors

But they know what they sign up for when training, they know what the wages are and in a way it's an apprentiship with the big money coming at the end when qualified. They are not worth what they ae asking for. Not until qualified. They should get back to work and learn how to put the patients first.

Allsorts

It costs a lot to train a doctor, they should give back to this country for a minimum of 10 years before going private or working abroad.
As for striking, disgraceful.

The young doctors want to work in the UK, but training posts are going to doctors from overseas. As I said earlier in the thread, this is because the UK is the only country in the world that does not prioritise its own graduate doctors. New medical schools are opening, so the situation is likely to get worse.

It costs a lot to train a doctor, they should give back to this country for a minimum of 10 years before going private or working abroad.
As for striking, disgraceful.