Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

ronib

I can’t find any information about F1 and F2 supervision- consultants, gps and SAS doctors supervise with appropriate medical insurance in place.

I only know from someone who works in the NHS.

Good post foxie48

I remain conflicted. I accept their pay has fallen behind. The same with others in public service.

I don’t see it as a positive to .oxe our doctors to Australia or Dubai, or to poach doctors from the Phillipenes, for eg.

I can’t find any information about F1 and F2 supervision- consultants, gps and SAS doctors supervise with appropriate medical insurance in place.

A good post, foxie48.

F1's and F2's are also expected to manage Physician Associates (PA) so it starts from the beginning of their professional journey. If the PA make a mistake, the buck stops with the F1 and F2.

Ah.
I suppose the ballot has to show a majority in favour too.

To be honest I think the general public think they are pushing their luck after last year’s settlement with Labour.

“Back to work” …. ? With no strings attached? Seems naive at best. 🤔

Resident doctors are all doctors in training grades, so in the old terminology, include house officers, senior house officers, registrars and senior registrars. This is the majority of hospital doctors below consultant level. About 80% are in the BMA according to the BMA press - that doesn’t mean that they will all choose to strike.

Only Resident Doctors have been asked to strike by the BMA.

Not all doctors are with the BMA.

Do they have to strike in that case? Or just BMA membership?

Very wise comments foxie48

Although my own daughter is a doctor I don't support the current demand for such a large pay increase and I doubt my daughter does either. However, I do wish people understood the training that doctors do and it's clear from some of these posts, a lot don't. My daughter is a resident doctor, she qualified 9 years ago, during which time she did her 2 years as a foundation doctor, a year as an A&E doctor, 3 years on her part one specialist training, and is in her third year of her final training. She's a fellow of the Royal college of Anaesthetists having passed all the required exams (paying for training, trips to London to take exams, exam fees etc herself, none of this is cheap!) She has during this time been involved in training undergrad students, foundation level students, core and specialist trainees and recently refugee doctors trying to convert their foreign medical degrees. Every day she goes to work she is training someone junior to herself and sometimes she is being trained herself. It is part of the oath that doctors become trainers. The expression "See one, do one, teach one" is how docotrs develop their skills and develop the skills in others. When £200k is quoted as the cost of training doctors, who do you think does the training? It is doctors, doing it as part of their day job, constantly assessing other doctors competences and deciding whether they are competent to do something on their own or still need a guiding hand. They don't get paid extra for doing this, it is part of their job but it has a value that can be quantified ie £200k . If doctors leave they take that training resource with them. Many doctors coming from abroad have experienced completely different training experiences to UK doctors. They often have huge gaps in some areas but have specialised earlier so are very knowledgeable in other areas. We need UK doctors to help plug those gaps and they also can benefit from working with foreign doctors, it is not completely one way traffic.
The moral question is should we be taking foreign doctors away from their own countries that have educated them at a great cost to that country and should we give scarce training places to foreign doctors leaving UK doctors without the means of continuing their education? For me the answer to both questions is "no".
I hope the BMA drop this threat of a strike and settle for a more reasonable pay increase. We do not pay our doctors as much as we should and frankly their working conditions and allocation of training posts is disgraceful but we need to recognise the NHS is not a bottomless pit of money.

But yes, the BMA are not taking the public along with them this time round that’s for sure.

A reassuring point Casdon.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

It’s the suddenness too of the planned strike. 25th July.
That segues nicely into the new cohort of doctors on rotation - new in different specialties the first week of August.

Scary times.

I think the junior doctors are going about this in completely the wrong way. In some ways changeover week is a good time, because the service is used to more senior doctors not taking leave during the week of the changeover as so many of the juniors take accrued leave before they start new jobs - but the lack of notice, and going straight into strike mode is going to engender no sympathy for their cause.

ronib

Best agree to disagree Casdon I don’t mind disgruntled people leaving for Australia.

You don’t think doctors in the UK should be paid at a rate commensurate with other equivalent countries like Australia ronib. I’ve got the message.

Wes has a sniff of the right tactic… you want pay you can have more pay … but you are not having your pensions kept on the same footing.

Best agree to disagree Casdon I don’t mind disgruntled people leaving for Australia.

It’s the suddenness too of the planned strike. 25th July.
That segues nicely into the new cohort of doctors on rotation - new in different specialties the first week of August.

Scary times.

No ronib, it’s about paying UK doctors an equivalent rate to other equivalent countries so they remain here.

Casdon The two consultants I met from Romania were managing just fine on their salaries because it gave them a reasonable standard of living as compared to Romania. Isn’t it all about expectation?

Isn’t that just another way of saying doctors from overseas are willing to work for less than the going rate?

I can't help thinking of all the members of the armed forces who get moved around often with no say where to, and risk losing their lives. All for a pittance compared to doctors.

Casdon Some doctors from overseas really seem to value their work in the NHS . They are not so money hungry perhaps as our home grown medics?

It’s the implication that the doctors from overseas are better that I don’t understand ronib. Of course there are some exceptionally good doctors from overseas in the NHS, but equally some exceptionally good British doctors have left this country. We should be paying doctors at a rate equivalent to that offered by other first world nations.

Casdon my point is that if UK doctors can’t hack the pay , working conditions and career progression, there’s still are willing trained and skilled doctors from overseas who are happy with less . My foreign surgeon and consultant spoke excellent English and were surprisingly caring.

I think it’s cheaper to import trained doctors from the rest of the world rather than write off student loans. Icanhandthemback The taxpayer is already paying around £230,000 to train each doctor. Enough is enough?