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There has been some confusion, over quite a long time on GN, by posters who suggest or state that the Labour Party has Communist policies
This is so incorrect, I decided to explain what Communism actual was both in theory and in the "Communist" states we have had/do have.
. My parents were Communists - and have also studied politics and economics at uni.
We haven’t ever had a ‘true” Communist society, but these are the features:
No one, no one at all, owns any private property, nor owns any businesses, nor own any land, nor the means of production, nor goods beyond their needs.
All run by the state, which in theory was post a workers revolution, and workers co-operatives.
In the original communist theory:
People are paid not according to their abilities, but their needs.
All health and education and similar services are run by the state, no private opportunities at all.
All receive a state pension/welfare is necessary however much they have paid in, ie, again, according to need, not savings and so on.
Of course, the societies called Communist did not reach this theoretical Communism, but there was certainly no private ownership or other kinds of ownership as described as above: and health, education and welfare all run by the state.
Note - meals were provided at work, and schools and all welfare places, but there was only a few years when meals were communally provided for those who wanted
Most people, as we do, wanted to eat at home except for lunch or other work breaks, where food was still supplied, and did so, once the turmoil of revolution ended
*But States we called Communist were was not run by Worker’s Co-operatives, they were run by supposedly free elections -
- hence the rise of those in power as we have known them, and the KGB et al*
I suggest we stop using the term Communist unless it is accurate.
It as happened so many times I decided to explain, and will again.
So.....hence this thread.
I really don’t think a N&P chat thread would work. Even threads about much frothier subjects stray into heated discussion, and people can’t resist joining in, with ensuing conflict.
fancythat
If it helps, I would join it.
It could be an ongoing, if sporadic, long running thread over time.
For whatever the politics of the day are.
Good idea.
Just don't mention trouser suits!
fancythat
nanna8 - fwiw, about 18 months ago, I did think about setting up a chat thread for n&p.
I dont want to do it myself currently, but I know what you mean about not being quizzed/asked/almost demanded to provide endless links and justifications.
Which, again fwiw, never pleases and will please, some askers, even if 50 were provided. Literally.
It's quite ironic in fact 😂😂😂
Me too.😃
fancythat
If it helps, I would join it.
It could be an ongoing, if sporadic, long running thread over time.
For whatever the politics of the day are.
Go for it fancythat - I'd join it too
If it helps, I would join it.
It could be an ongoing, if sporadic, long running thread over time.
For whatever the politics of the day are.
nanna8 - fwiw, about 18 months ago, I did think about setting up a chat thread for n&p.
I dont want to do it myself currently, but I know what you mean about not being quizzed/asked/almost demanded to provide endless links and justifications.
Which, again fwiw, never pleases and will please, some askers, even if 50 were provided. Literally.
I should have added that Starmer has strongly championed Devolvement of Power and is following through with it. That would be an anathema to the extremists (including Communists), of either left or right. It's more like a democratic-centrists view.
nanna8
Just incompetence not communism though I believe Starmer is a Marxist at heart. Most here support him so he must have some (very) hidden talents along with his front bench.
"Starmer a Marxist at heart" is a subjective characterisation reflecting a particular perspective or opinion rather than an established fact. Keir Starmer is generally viewed as a center-left politician who has emphasised party unity, moderate policies, and a pragmatic approach to politics.
He has expressed support for social justice and workers' rights, but labeling him a "Marxist at heart" would require an extreme right-wing perception of British politics.
Different commentators and political analysts may have varying interpretations based on their perspectives, but publicly available information suggests Starmer doesn't identify as a Marxist.
Allira
John McDonnell;
“Hello, are you looking forward to having a Marxist in No 11?” was how McDonnell greeted a business executive. The MP has long spoken of his admiration for revolutionary socialist thinkers. In 2006 he named Marx, Lenin and Trotsky as his most significant intellectual influences (Jeremy Corbyn, by contrast, has confessed to not reading “as much of Marx as I should have done”).
No, the present Government is not Communist!
😄
Maybe Corbyn was more of a ‘Trot’
nanna8
Is this some sort of court of law or what ? If you believe something strongly that’s all there is to it in my book. I can’t be stuffed going into what I know about Marxism, religion, politics, literature, mathematics or anything else . Being bitchy here but many of the aggressive seekers wouldn’t probably get it anyway . My University studies in politics and history were a while back now but my long term memory isn’t bad ( unlike the short term part ) .
So basically, you are complaining that participating in this discussion feels more like a debate—where ideas are scrutinised and argued—rather than just a casual forum where people simply state their opinions without much challenge.
It may help you to see GN's definition of "News and Politics". Our News and Politics forum is a buzzing hive of debate. From breaking news headlines, to UK political affairs, you can discuss them all here. Debate is not about being in a "court of law", but about treating the exchange of ideas with more seriousness and engagement.
Not everyone will want to delve into complex topics like Marxism, politics, or literature, but sometimes, a more structured discussion can help clarify different perspectives, even if it’s just for personal understanding.
If this is not your type of discussion, why not set up a suitable "Chat" thread. GN does provide a place for all types of discussion.
According to Lady Google,
Communism is a social organisation in which all property is owned by the community, and each person contributes according to their ability and needs
Hope this helps
John McDonnell;
“Hello, are you looking forward to having a Marxist in No 11?” was how McDonnell greeted a business executive. The MP has long spoken of his admiration for revolutionary socialist thinkers. In 2006 he named Marx, Lenin and Trotsky as his most significant intellectual influences (Jeremy Corbyn, by contrast, has confessed to not reading “as much of Marx as I should have done”).
No, the present Government is not Communist!
What you are describing wyllow3 though bears no relation to the Marx description of communism.
It was a lot, lot more complex than it seems, indeed, petra.
(I think what I describe is what you are getting at? (Do correct me if I am wrong)
Those societies were not "all bad". Pensioners, the elderly, and people with disabilities have all suffered (depending on the country of course) - for example - in Russia and some other countries, older and vulnerable people look back at a system that gave security.
Romania of course was appalling in every way. It wasn't even the leader, Nicolae Ceaușescu, it was his wife. Their palace was the biggest in the world - and the overthrow probably the most dramatic.
(The very pleasant 40 something who helped me upgrade my computers was born there, came to the UK via the States, and told me a lot)
But the end of Communism in Czechoslovakia was called the "Velvet Revolution" - it was "ready to happen" and was peaceful.
Wyllow3
I know what you mean. I lived in Bulgaria for 5 years prior to them joining the eu.
When I read those comments a voice in my head says: you have no idea.
nanna8 does Australia have a mixed economy?
Is this some sort of court of law or what ? If you believe something strongly that’s all there is to it in my book. I can’t be stuffed going into what I know about Marxism, religion, politics, literature, mathematics or anything else . Being bitchy here but many of the aggressive seekers wouldn’t probably get it anyway . My University studies in politics and history were a while back now but my long term memory isn’t bad ( unlike the short term part ) .
Oh, there have been a number of people Oreo over time, but of course I'm not going to name names as respect due, and the guidelines.
I recall three occasions - as it makes me hot under the collar that people throw the word "Communism" about -
without bothering to look up just a few basics - 10 mins tops?
Some people have no idea what Communism is. The Labour Party were always Socialist until Blair came along.
Socialism is not the same as Communism...
Now even Labour voters don't know what Socialism means.
Oreo
I haven’t noticed anyone confusing Labour with Communism I must say.
There are some old Marxists in the Party tho 😁 Corbyn and Mc Donnell .I still smile at the memory of something I read, Corbyn and Dianne Abbot roaring , or puttering around Cuba on his motorbike.
Even they may have mellowed politically with the years.
😄you just did😄😄
I haven’t noticed anyone confusing Labour with Communism I must say.
There are some old Marxists in the Party tho 😁 Corbyn and Mc Donnell .I still smile at the memory of something I read, Corbyn and Dianne Abbot roaring , or puttering around Cuba on his motorbike.
Even they may have mellowed politically with the years.
I think they are, vegansrock - but it's in subtle targeted ways, and those, deliberately under reported. I've found little moves that apparently dont count for much, but are doing a lot of good - rental reforms, re-engaging with the EU is a huge one, changes in the NHS (like many more "one stop" clinics cutting waiting lists massively - in ENT, in X rays, in cancer treatments and so on (some of these were of course in progress before, but early labour NHS moves sped it up) - extra money early on for GP clinics, settling immediate crisis on strikes as soon as they came in (yes I know more to come and complex, but totally and desperately needed at the time vis a vis Junior doctors)......
...not hiding the dreadful prison crisis anymore as the conservatives had done, and so on, and although they got the amount of the "black hole" inaccurate, nevertheless less it had been hidden.
No , not remotely communist. It would be good if they were more social democratic though.
C = Czechoslovakia. The tanks rolled in - it was the time of a rise in political change (the Paris riots?)
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