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Sandie Peggie/NHS Fife Tribunal case resumes

(46 Posts)
ViceVersa Wed 16-Jul-25 16:25:42

Rather than resurrect the old thread on this, I thought I'd start a new one. The tribunal case involving NHS Fife Nurse Sandie Peggie, who objected to having to share a changing room and get undressed in front of transgender Dr Beth Upton, has resumed today.
And coincidentally (!) it has also been announced that Sandie Peggie has been cleared of the misconduct charges against her: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2mp5jley8o
We've also seen NHS Fife's own Diversity Lead, Isla Bumba, being made to show that she knows very little about the very subjects she's being paid almost £50k to 'advise' on.

Piskey Wed 06-Aug-25 19:20:58

My daughter has suffered for nearly 30 years, from painful and flooding every month on her period. Despite dozens of doctors appointments, with the usual comments- ‘ it’s all in the mind’ ‘there’s not much we can do about it’ ‘ anti-depressants should help’. No empathy.
I accompanied her a few years ago, and asked the male doctor “ how did you feel when you started your periods?” He replied “ I’ve never had a period “. “And yet, you speak with such authority “ I said “ for a man”.
A female doctor would have been sympathetic to Sandie - a male doctor puts in a complaint.
A very brave and courageous woman.

eazybee Wed 06-Aug-25 18:22:16

The Tribunal has now withdrawn to consider the evidence, and the verdict is expected some time in the Autumn, because it is a very complex matter. This case will have taken nearly two years.
Why?
Is this doctor still practising, or has he been suspended for bullying, harassment and bringing the Hospital into disrepute?

Doversole Wed 06-Aug-25 17:39:53

Even if trans identifying men have fully transitioned (surgery, hormones etc), they are still men and retain some male characteristics and physical advantages. The world of sport e.g. the IOC and world athletics agree on this.

So even those who have transitioned should stay out of womens’ single sex spaces such as changing rooms and toilets.

multicolourswapshop Thu 24-Jul-25 13:42:29

Well said Mrs Matt

Aveline Thu 24-Jul-25 11:58:31

I think Sandie Peggie has done us all a huge favour despite the dreadful personal cost to her. Forcing this issue out into the highly public eye should lead to major organisations changing their policies and ways of thinking about women, real women's rights.

Galaxy Thu 24-Jul-25 11:32:22

Yes it always makes me laugh when people moan about conspiracy theories on social media yet ignore the fact this lunacy is running rife through organisations.

Smileless2012 Thu 24-Jul-25 11:30:14

They should be sacked.

Mollygo Thu 24-Jul-25 11:27:33

You only have to read the list of things said in evidence.

How has it become possible that lying to get what you want should be acceptable, whilst those who don’t accept the lie, or speak the truth are attacked and condemned?

Galaxy Thu 24-Jul-25 09:45:59

She has just done a brilliant tweet on how the subject of 'class' relates to this issue.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 24-Jul-25 09:41:09

Sparklefizz

^I love J K Rowling's tweet on the subject, so accurate!^

J.K. Rowling
@jk_rowling
·
Jul 19
Never forget: women can't know for sure they're women unless they've had their chromosomes checked, but if a man says he's a woman he's definitely a woman and it is highly offensive to mention his chromosomes, which are entirely irrelevant to whether or not a person is a woman.
......

Love it and love JKR.

JKR is a woman I admire greatly she, is unwavering in her support of fellow women 👏👏👏

eazybee Thu 24-Jul-25 09:38:30

I think the Telegraph is reporting honestly as it contains all the evidence being painstakingly extracted in the Tribunal, particularly that of Dr.Kate Searle.
I have said elsewhere what a brave woman Sandie Peggie is, in facing up to the unpleasant Dr. Theodore Upton and the aspersions he and his unduly supportive colleagues levelled at her.
How she will cope when her adrenalin has returned to normal levels and she confronts the true scale of the conspiracy against her by people in authority I do not know. I hope she is able to return to her hospital post and is given the full support she needs.

When this Tribunal is over very serious consideration needs to be given to the future of Dr. Upton, Kate Searle and their colleagues, but the daily revelations of the behaviour of the Hospital Trust make this doubtful.

Sparklefizz Thu 24-Jul-25 07:36:27

I love J K Rowling's tweet on the subject, so accurate!

J.K. Rowling
@jk_rowling
·
Jul 19
Never forget: women can't know for sure they're women unless they've had their chromosomes checked, but if a man says he's a woman he's definitely a woman and it is highly offensive to mention his chromosomes, which are entirely irrelevant to whether or not a person is a woman.
......

Love it and love JKR.

grannydarkhair Thu 24-Jul-25 05:01:12

“As today’s cross made plain, the charge against Peggie was built backwards. A conclusion first, then a motive, then a narrative, then finally some retro-fitted evidence. The log never existed, the hate incident report was embellished. But the consequences were real: loss of income, damage to reputation, and nearly the end of a career.”

x.com/boswelltoday/status/1948052894344720820?s=61&t=qph6ruaz5B5GPjDn7jnZBw

boswelltoday@boswelltoday writes summaries of each session of the Tribunal. The above is the summary of the afternoon session when Naomi Cunningham, Counsel for SP, cross-examined Dr Kate Searle. Dr Searle is an Emergency Department Consultant.
What is absolutely infuriating to those of us following the Tribunal is the lack of honest reporting in most MSM, the BBC being especially egregious.

Cumbrianmale56 Sun 20-Jul-25 14:16:38

Galaxy

It is also why it is really difficult to extract this nonsense from organisations, it provides the middle class with lovely well paid jobs.

I think all this diversity stuff does is create problems where non exist, creates jobs for middle class left wingers who can pursue their stupid agendas, and gets everyone's backs up. Every day I have to walk past a union notice board at work that at one time used to provide information about employment rights, pay campaigns and the like, and has been turned into a shroud of rainbow flags and posters screaming Fight Transphobia.
Ironically, the notice board is next to a women's toilet. Now suppose someone like Dr Upton walks into the toilet, demands to use it because he/ she/whatever is transitioning, and a woman complains that she was made to feel uncomfortable and Dr Upton was behaving aggressively. No doubt the union and possibly some of the management not wanting to be ssen as transphobic wouldn't back the woman up, who could face disciplinary action or be forced to go on some diversity course.

JaneJudge Sun 20-Jul-25 13:54:31

I think this is further complicated by the information that Peggie had a menstrual issue, something that doesn't appear to have been mentioned - it could even be considered a protected characteristic?

Smileless2012 Sun 20-Jul-25 13:54:00

TW don't want to be a gender neutral, they want to be the one thing they can't be and some are willing to resort to threats and violence to try and achieve it that's spot on Mollygo smile

Rosie51 Sun 20-Jul-25 13:25:30

Terribull for a diversity officer Bumba seems especially tunnel-visioned, having only 'trans ally' in her email signature, no mention of any other categories. She had no idea about how many disabled employees there were, how many needed any religious considerations, or any other protections.
You have to wonder how she registered her sex on her marriage certificate, and is she really sure she married a man?

I've been following tribunal tweet's reporting and can see exactly why NHSFife wanted the whole thing done in private with no reporting at all. It's a total exposure of the vindictive persecution of a woman who knows what sex is and who objected to being expected to share changing facilities with a man, even a deluded doctor who thinks he's a biological female.

I love J K Rowling's tweet on the subject, so accurate!

J.K. Rowling
@jk_rowling
·
Jul 19
Never forget: women can't know for sure they're women unless they've had their chromosomes checked, but if a man says he's a woman he's definitely a woman and it is highly offensive to mention his chromosomes, which are entirely irrelevant to whether or not a person is a woman.

Mollygo Sun 20-Jul-25 13:20:16

Smileless2012

FGS angry why on earth are trans women still accessing the women only pond when it's already been stipulated that only biological women are women?

Because that’s what some men do. They don’t think women should have rights, which exclude males.
That’s why adding GN toilets or changing rooms or sports will hit a barrier.
TW don’t want to be gender neutral, they want to be the one thing they can’t be and some are willing to resort to threats and violence to try and achieve it.

Unfortunately their actions have affected the other TW who have no wish to cause trouble or be dragged into the public eye.

This is where manipulative is really an appropriate term
control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously
alter or present facts so as to mislead

Galaxy Sun 20-Jul-25 12:57:02

It is also why it is really difficult to extract this nonsense from organisations, it provides the middle class with lovely well paid jobs.

TerriBull Sun 20-Jul-25 12:45:51

Extracts from an article by Hadley Freeman in today's ST, which will be behind a paywall.

Look out for the mafia with rainbow lanyards - Diversity Officers have terrorised workplaces, but their reign may be ending.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity" Martin Luther King Jnr. said that, a man, I'd hope Isla Bumba, NHS Fife's equality and human rights lead officer, had heard of considering her job is improving diversity. Although given Bumba admitted last week that she wasn't entirely sure if she was a woman, it's probably best not to make assumptions.

Bumba was testifying at Sandie Peggie's employment tribunal, and I must first explain Peggie before I get on to Bumba. In December 2023, Peggie an NHS Nurse with more than 30 years of unblemished service, went into the women's changing room of Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy because she had a heavy period and bled through her scrubs. There she was surprised to encounter 6ft tall, 27 year old male undressing in front of her. This male is now known as Dr Beth Upton, and he had started identifying as a woman only the year before. Peggie complained that Upton was in the wrong changing room and Upton complained that Peggie had committed a "hate crime". This being Scotland - once the cradle of the Enlightenment, now a Petri dish of gender woo at its most misogynistic - Peggie was accused of "misgendering" (the gravest of crimes in Scotland) suspended, investigated and threatened with the sack. Peggie filed a tribunal claim against Upton and NHS Fife, which began at the beginning of this year and resumed last week.

On Wednesday, NHS Fife admitted that its investigation had found "insufficient evidence" of any misconduct by Peggie. Yet the trust apparently decided against settling in favour of spaffing away more public money by defending the case, even as its board's investigation had ostensibly just quashed it. On Friday afternoon NHS Fife issued a hilariously huffy statement in which it blamed everyone but itself for being a national laughing stock. It objected to the "polarised debate" and said media coverage should "distinguish fact from opinion" It's a shame the trust apparently doesn't ask that of its own doctors, given Upton insists he is "biologically female" (reminder this man is a doctor) Who, you ask, could have been providing brilliant in house advice? Enter stage right Bumba.

MLK Jnr never met a diversity officer because they only became a fixture of workplaces in the past five years. But I can't better his description of "sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity" when summing up Bumba who testified on Wednesday she didn't know her own sex, because "no one knows what their chromosomes are" (reminder again: these people work in a hospital) Despite being asked for advice on trans policies "frequently once a week" Bumba said she didn't actually have an official policy, and so just asked other diversity officers what they did. It's like the mafia, but with rainbow lanyards.

I had two takeaways from this exchange: first nothing has been worse for the gender movement than the cleansing light of the courts. Again and again, gender activists have lost because while the public are all for supporting vulnerable minorities, they tend to do a double take when they hear claims like "It's transphobic to say a lesbian can't have a penis" The law isn't infallible but it does at least offer the detergent of sunlight.

Second no job has more of the whiff of 2020 than the diversity officer. They exist to confirm their employer's moral purity by "improving diversity and inclusion" and they do this by quantifying minorities and gamifying vulnerabilities, keeping track of which disabilities are up and which are down, as if the human condition were a stock market. Does dyslexia need its own awareness day, as the diversity officer at one friend's workplace decided. How about making pronouns on work emails mandatory. Is a man who identifies as a woman more deserving of protection than an actual woman? These are the kind of hard questions the diversity officer must puzzle over daily, meaning those who apply for the job tend to have few talents other than scolding their colleagues.

Introducing activism into the workplace has rarely gone well, and the diversity officer is the human form of this activism, not interested in making things fairer, but in replacing one hierarchy with another. Aside from distracting people from doing their actual job, it makes everyone sound insane.

polnan Fri 18-Jul-25 09:25:40

MrsMatt so very well said, thankyou. I would hope that I also treat people in that manner
slightly different ,but sort of similar to me, being an old fashioned sort of person

we had a vicar who came to help us temporarily, and he was the most lovely natural person, he stood at the "altar" and told us all he had feelings for the same sex, can`t remember how he phrased it exactly, but most of us , women parishioners already knew that... he is a lovely person, and we miss him so much. but MrsMatt
to comment on your final sentence, that is what I tried to express earlier,, why doesn`t the media and other discussions on this subject/ these people ever refer to this point?

MrsMatt Fri 18-Jul-25 08:36:22

Personally I have no issues with people being who they want to be as long as they do not upset or involve other people in their wants and wishes. I do object changing in the same room as someone who still have all the tackle of the opposite sex. I would be just as unhappy having to share a hospital ward too. Just because they think they are a woman, doesn't mean that their tackle doesn't work like a mans. The case of the 'transwoman' who was put in a womans prison and raped an inmate comes to mind.

I have a neighbour whose son is 'trans' or thinks he is. He is young so you never know. I just treat him like anyone else when he comes into the shop I work in.

We have a customer, lets call him George. Sometimes I serve George with his newspaper, sometimes I serve Georgina.

They all get treated the same. but then neither of them have demanded special treatment because of their ways or beliefs.

Isn't it strange that we don't hear all this fuss about trans men? We don't hear about them demanding this, that or the other, do we?

SillyOma Thu 17-Jul-25 20:43:35

Agree completely Bestbookever. There is no such thing as a Trans woman/man. They are transvestites. As the eminent Professor Robert Winston says 'you can't change your sex because it is embedded in your genes in every cell in your body'. This Tribunal is a farce however it is highlighting the nonsense being peddled in organisations accross the country and hopefully this will help to restore normal working practices and actually follow the Equality Act 2010, it hasn't changed.

ViceVersa Thu 17-Jul-25 18:09:13

WoodLane7

Ilovecheese

Is Isla Bunba going to be the sacrificial lamb?

I was vaguely aware of a tribunal of some kind but not been following, I have no idea who Isla Bunba is, off to google it......

Isla Bumba is NHS Fife's equality and human rights lead officer, who yesterday told the tribunal that she does not know if she is a woman or not, because she's never had her chromosomes tested.

Mojack26 Thu 17-Jul-25 18:08:13

I'm glad she won! Fed up with my rights,as a woman, being disregarded at the expense of the minority....