So what do GNs think of Starmer’s decision to recognise Palestine as a state?

Hamas or like groups will never be eliminated till oppression ceases.

“If only we had an American president willing to challenge Netanyahu. “

That day may come soon, Israel is totally dependant on US aid, they have to take notice of the US, there has to be a resolution soon. Even Trump has to take notice of international opinion eventually, Israel has to either accept a ceasefire or finish the job of eliminating Hamas.

The young Israeli woman I met had recently returned from Israel having served in the military there. She was desperately missing Israel and much preferred the way of life there to that here. Everyone worked together unlike here where everyone does not. After security alarms, people just went back to their routines. She was missing her old life a lot. A lovely lady.

It’s really quite rude to say WWM has no understanding of the situation. Au contraire. She has a lot more understanding than some posters.

What I do now understand and it was something that has puzzled me for quite some time, is the difference and the vast gulf between the Jewish tradition that people like Beinart cherish and what has replaced it in the practice of the state of Israel.

Quote ronib Wed 13-Aug-25 08:48:44
I find it really helpful to have conversations with Jews who visit Israel frequently and who understand the issues better than I thought possible. The word on the street is that there will never be a two state solution.
I am embarrassed by the lack of insight shown by non Jewish politicians.

Same for me and I learned much from a nurse who lived and worked in Gaza until 2022, he isn’t Arab or Jew

I find it really helpful to have conversations with Jews who visit Israel frequently and who understand the issues better than I thought possible. The word on the street is that there will never be a two state solution.
I am embarrassed by the lack of insight shown by non Jewish politicians.

Oreo

Whitewavemark2 Everything you write shows that you have absolutely no understanding of the situation there, either of Israelis or Palestinians.
You think of it as two European countries coming together and always your sympathies with the Palestinians.
If a two state solution was established tomorrow there would never be peace as Palestinians would still be firing missiles at Israel and wanting every Jew out.
Allowing hamas control of Gaza didn’t work out either for Gaza or for Israel.Who would run a new Gaza government? May start off looking reasonable but would inevitably be infiltrated by a new hamas under a new name.I think Israel must totally control Gaza for there to be real peace.

If you’d read my posts carefully you would know that I am in fact (certainly the past couple of days) paraphrasing what I am reading. I indicated the book and author a while back.

The author just for context is a Jewish American professor who writes extensively in various Jewish publications.

I am reading Jewish authors because I think that it is important to be as widely read as is possible. I would add however, that I am rejecting any writings by theological Jews as I don’t think they have anything rational to say to the politics of the situation.

What I have been doing is to spend my time reading and understanding, then paraphrasing. But perhaps it would help if I actually use the professors words.

So your argument that I do not understand falls on deaf ears I am afraid. The more I read the more I understand and can fill in the gaps.

What I would say however, is that your replies frequently indicate that you have not read posts very carefully and with little thought, because your subsequent post would be very different to what you have said.

As would this last post.

Quote Iam64 Wed 13-Aug-25 08:23:43
Anniebach
David49 so true thank you, as for there will always be a “Hamas”, causes me to ask “will there always be a Hitler” .
There will always be individuals like Hitler, who want power at any cost. Putin springs to mind. Hitler’s attempt to rid the world of Jews, Roma, people with learning difficulties, or opposed him stands out as a reminder to the world that power crazed maniacs shouldn’t be elected as he was

Hamas is a terrorist group. The idea it can be annihilated by continuing to bomb, starve, terrorise, cause mass movement of Palestinians is just daft. It will survive and it seems to me inevitable, it will grow or be reborn under a new name. Provisional IRA ?

If only we had an American president willing to challenge Netanyahu. Instead we have a narcissistic property developer obsessed with deals rather than diplomacy.

If any race of people had endured what Jews have and still have to endured would any attempt to defend be daft ? Hitler didn’t stand alone , Hamas doesn’t stand alone , Jews are fighting to
exist

There have been no Israeli security forces in Gaza for many years until a force that can control terrorists is put in place fighting will continue

Anniebach

David49 so true thank you, as for there will always be a “Hamas”, causes me to ask “will there always be a Hitler” .

There will always be individuals like Hitler, who want power at any cost. Putin springs to mind. Hitler’s attempt to rid the world of Jews, Roma, people with learning difficulties, or opposed him stands out as a reminder to the world that power crazed maniacs shouldn’t be elected as he was

Hamas is a terrorist group. The idea it can be annihilated by continuing to bomb, starve, terrorise, cause mass movement of Palestinians is just daft. It will survive and it seems to me inevitable, it will grow or be reborn under a new name. Provisional IRA ?

If only we had an American president willing to challenge Netanyahu. Instead we have a narcissistic property developer obsessed with deals rather than diplomacy.

Whitewavemark2 Everything you write shows that you have absolutely no understanding of the situation there, either of Israelis or Palestinians.
You think of it as two European countries coming together and always your sympathies with the Palestinians.
If a two state solution was established tomorrow there would never be peace as Palestinians would still be firing missiles at Israel and wanting every Jew out.
Allowing hamas control of Gaza didn’t work out either for Gaza or for Israel.Who would run a new Gaza government? May start off looking reasonable but would inevitably be infiltrated by a new hamas under a new name.I think Israel must totally control Gaza for there to be real peace.

Gaza has never been entirely self governing. Israel has never released total control of any of its land.

The situation is one of 7 million people being governed by a state in which they have no say or influence.

To govern fairly Israel will need to mature as a democracy and allow its entire population full franchise and equality before the law.

When , however theology replaces politics as it has in the Israeli government, fairness doesn’t stand a snowballs chance in hell.

David49 so true thank you, as for there will always be a “Hamas”, causes me to ask “will there always be a Hitler” .

Long before Hamas cane into being Palestinians had a long history of attacking Israel, it’s not about the current settlers dispute the Arabs see the whole of Israel as theirs. They made the mistake of allowing Gaza to be entirely self governing and lost control of security, unlike West Bank where Israel does control security.

There is no reconciling the Arab claim to all of Israel, there will always be extremists willing to fight Israel, but that is no different to Egypt, Jordan,Syria, Lebanon who all have their own violent factions. All of those neighbouring countries want nothing to do with Palestinians adding to their own problems

I really dont see a two state system being practical, either Israel regains control of Gaza and governs fairly or the Jews pack up and leave the Arabs to fight amongst themselves

REKA

Hamas wants to eradicate Israel

Their leaders have stated many times that October 7th will be repeated until there are no more Jews. From the river to the sea

It doesn’t matter whether Hamas exists or not.

Treating a whole population within its borders as Israel is with oppression and violence, without legal equality will mean that insurrection will never ever cease.

Until Israel becomes a mature democracy (and I can’t see that happening any time soon) it will be never have peace. There will always be a “Hamas”

Allira

Is it a good idea to keep pigeonholing posters, Whitewave into 'goodies' and 'baddies? It's not as simple as that.
We can see for ourselves the horrors, see the dreadful pictures of desperate mothers and children, but have read that there are black marketeers and can see not everyone is starving.

But buying Netanyahu’s lies that starvation does not exist , when your eyes cannot lie, makes those who go along with this lie complicit imo.

It isn’t a question of goodies or baddies ss you quaintly put it, it is a question of humanity.

You may be right, but it’s highly unlikely given the power of Israel and its American friends. As for hatred of the other I have seen and heard Israeli soldiers saying similar things about the palistinians.

I watched No other Land by Basel Ardra and his Jewish friend and colleague recently which deservedly won an Oscar last year. This film can’t be watched in America, I expect it’s not available in Israel either and understand why. It paints Israel in a very poor light but while the focus is on Gaza, terrible things are happening on the West Bank.
I am genuinely sad for the decent people of Israel in whose name this violence and the crimes against humanity are being carried out. Also for the families of the hostages and hope they can be returned. Unfortunately Netanyahu and his hard right cronies has other plans and is more than willing to sacrifice them for his own ends.

Yes, we know that.

But what you are not saying is

From the River to the Sea

Is also The founding charter of Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party states

Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty

In other words, clear intent to clear all Palestinians out of the country.

*And it's happening, REKA

Hamas wants to eradicate Israel

Their leaders have stated many times that October 7th will be repeated until there are no more Jews. From the river to the sea

For those who think that this all began out of the blue by Hamas in October 23, I list the more recent attacks by Israel on the palistinians and civilian casualties where known.

2001-2005 3,000 thousand palistinians were killed
2005-2007 359 Palestinians were killed and 4 Israelis were killed
2008-2009 1,181 Palestinians were killed
2012 103 Palestinians killed and 4 Israelis killed
2014 2,257 palistinians killed
2021. 128 Palestinians killed and 1 Israeli killed

These attacks barely reported by our media go back to 1948 and can be researched easily enough if interested.
When you kick a dog hard enough and long enough, no one should be surprised if one day it bites back.

Unlike Whitewave I have no knowledge or experience in allowing myself to care or not care, sounds so like tossing a
coin.

Is it a good idea to keep pigeonholing posters, Whitewave into 'goodies' and 'baddies? It's not as simple as that.
We can see for ourselves the horrors, see the dreadful pictures of desperate mothers and children, but have read that there are black marketeers and can see not everyone is starving.

Oreo

valdavi

Hostages are being starved because their captors and their captor's families are being starved.So Israel is the proper recipient of a petition to address that, & Israel can't release the hostages becuase it's not them holdiong them.

If Hamas were deliberately starving hostages, they would not still be alive after nearly 2 years of captivity.

Simply not true.
No men in the streets in Gaza look like the male hostage shown in the video.I suggest you do a close up look at people in the Gaza pics.A lot of men look quite burley and none at all are staving.The hostage looked exactly like the awful Belsen photos.

Denying the suffering by the people of Gaza is like giving yourself permission not to care.

Oreo

Babs03

Netanyahu has washed his hands of the hostages and I feel sorry for their families who must feel so betrayed by the government. The only way to free the remaining hostages, as has been done before, would be for Netanyahu to attempt to negotiate with Hamas to ensure a ceasefire, during which time aid could safely be delivered and hostages returned.
The very fact that Netanyahu is now expanding the war zone, initiating a full occupation, suggests he doesn’t care a jot about the hostages.

It’s amazing how much you know of what’s in Netanyahu’s mind, got a crystal ball maybe.
Do you imagine doing any dealing with hamas is easy? They don’t respond to anything like normal people, because they aren’t normal.

Hamas behave just like all insurrectionists have done.

Gruesome, pitiless attacks be the oppressed onto the oppressor.

We have countless examples right down through the centuries.

The Mau Mau in Africa, the Amritsar massacre, The massacre at Fort Mims by Creek Indians are examples. All carried out by oppressed people.