Will Trump really support Ukraine at meeting with Putin?

Putin has said he may meet Zelensky in Moscow knowing that this would never happen. He is playing games with Trump.

foxie48

What's to explain, Ronib? My reply was to the post above mine by David but I'm intrigued by your comment that "he's out of our league" What do you mean by that?

My closing comment on my post of 15.56 yesterday covered that.

We are obsessed with following the rules of war, Putin is not he fights dirty, it’s very hard to win against an opponent who does that. To get any kind of victory you either have to exhaust his resources and he gives up, or win on the battlefield

We may well have the high moral ground but we loose the fight

I think it's unfair to say he's running rings round Starmer and the EU, they are not negotiating with him and I think they neither trust him nor accept any of his reasons for his invading Ukraine. tbh I rather thought you believed his reasons looking back at previous posts. Zelensky is running a much better military campaign than Russia, is losing far fewer troops to injury and death but is hampered by lack of resources and mixed messages from the US about what support they will give and not give to Ukraine and even the support he gets has often been late. Trump is a tricky one. I think he enjoys European leaders constantly trying to massage his ego (unfortunately a necessary but unpleasant reality of how to keep Trump on board) but does he actually care about Ukraine? I don't think he does. He thinks big powerful countries should be able to bully their neighbours and take what they want. Actually Russia has been greatly weakened by this war and sanctions have affected it's economy. Is Putin playing Trump? Probably but I don't think Trump is that bothered!

Yup, Putin plays dirty, he's charged with being a war criminal so it was pretty revolting seeing him being given the red carpet treatment by Trump in Alaska! I don't think anyone thinks Ukraine can "win" this war which was not of it's making. The question is how to keep the loss as small as possible and how to ensure Ukraine's future security. Russia's claim that NATO is a threat to Russia, is of course, utter rubbish. NATO is a purely defensive organisation. The question is will Russia risk invading a NATO member like Latvia or Lithuania? How Europe deals with the invasion of Ukraine will be very relative to what Putin might do in the future.

ronib

foxie48 I believe that Putin is running rings round Trump, Zelensky, Starmer and the EU. Putin has an iron clad determination to do what he thinks is best for Russia. We might not go along with his methods but he won’t bend to the West.
The news headlines yesterday promised a lot but gave nothing.

That doesn't mean that the West should bow to him, although he would like that to happen.

He wants to keep the areas which he has gained by invading a sovereign state. if they are conceded to him, he will populate them byy settling russians there. He will build Russian factories, owned by Russia, run by Russian managers and supervisors and worked by ukrainians whose previous livelihoods were destroyed by the Russian invasion and who will be paid a minimal Russian wage. Profits from the Ukrainian source materials and the work done on them will go to Russia.

He will bring in "Russian security staff" to defend his assets there and control the workforce and inhabitants. More factories will be built and supply arms for the defence of his Russian enclave in Ukraine from what he perceives (or claims to) as a threat from the West.

With the area controlled and producing weapons for aggression as well as defence, he will be in a position to move against neighbouring countries which were once in the Soviet Bloc but are now sovereign countries in their own right - as is Ukraine - and who will not wish to be subject to Russian control. What do we do when that happens? Wish we had been more proactive earlier?

If once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Danes.

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

Putin would love to be remembered as the one who reunited and possibly increased the scattered parts of the Soviet Union. If part of Ukraine is ceded to him, how long would it take him to covet the rest of Ukraine?

Then what? Look at this map. From Ukraine Russia would have borders with Romania, Moldava, Hungary, slovakia, Poland and Belarus. It already borders Latvia and Estonia. Lithuania would soon be swallowed up - there is already a little Russian enclave between it and Poland.

ronib

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

NATO does not occupy countries and demand to own and control them as a condition of stopping an invasion.

Elegran

ronib

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

NATO does not occupy countries and demand to own and control them as a condition of stopping an invasion.

Further to this, NATO has taken steps to protect civilians, prevent ethnic cleansing and defend innocent people caught up in a war. I would call this "defensive" not "offensive".

foxie48

Elegran

ronib

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

NATO does not occupy countries and demand to own and control them as a condition of stopping an invasion.

Further to this, NATO has taken steps to protect civilians, prevent ethnic cleansing and defend innocent people caught up in a war. I would call this "defensive" not "offensive".

NATO bombings are controversial, 'mistakes' have been made and questions are still ongoing.
The will be ultra-careful in future.

But we can hope that NATO has learnt from its mistakes but there’s no way future actions can be guaranteed surely? Allira

NATO is not joining in this war, the issue is that Ukraine has asked to join NATO when this war ends. If Putin doesn't intend to invade Ukraine again, why on earth would he be worried by this? The point is NATO does not get involved if countries are at peace!

I am unclear why NATO is being brought into this conversation?

Ukraine will not be joining NATO as part of the deal.

I’ve been listening to a lot of commentary over the past week or so, and have come to the conclusion that Trump actually couldn’t care less about Ukraine or indeed Europe and that Europe as a whole would be much better off ploughing it’s own furrow - which of course means money - but I think a more mature and secure plan would come as a result.

Warfare is run by politicians not soldiers, they just follow orders, politicians never learn from history, they live for what power they can gain today.
We would never have gone to war in Afghanistan if they looked at the history books, Britain fought three Afghan wars eventually giving up, Russia lost their Afghan war yet our politicians thought they could do better
Plenty of other examples

ronib

But we can hope that NATO has learnt from its mistakes but there’s no way future actions can be guaranteed surely? Allira

There is no way Putin's actions can be relied upon.

Following my quote of "If once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Danes," here is another - "Give him an inch and he will take an ell".

I feel so sorry for the Ukranians because they are not going to get the help that they need.

David49

Warfare is run by politicians not soldiers, they just follow orders, politicians never learn from history, they live for what power they can gain today.
We would never have gone to war in Afghanistan if they looked at the history books, Britain fought three Afghan wars eventually giving up, Russia lost their Afghan war yet our politicians thought they could do better
Plenty of other examples

Warfare is run by politicians not soldiers, they just follow orders, politicians never learn from history, they live for what power they can gain today.

Very true.
And then they die and along comes another despotic megalomaniac.

Unfortunately the most powerful countries in the world are run by despots.
We've had over 2000 years and we still haven't learned.

But what should a country do when it is attacked by a "despotic megalomaniac"? Ukraine didn't attack Russia, yet it has been invaded twice in a decade. Poland didn't attack Germany in 1939 although Hitler claimed it did, "despotic megalomaniacs" tend to tell lots of lies. Politicians are not all "DM"s some act with moral responsibility and in the best long term interests of their citizens but cannot avoid going to war.

Perhaps peace-loving people should rise up and rid their countries of these megalomaniac leaders intent on destruction.
The problem is, they are surrounded by like-minded people and it would be like cutting the head off the Hydra.

There is nothing new under the sun.

foxie48

Yup, Putin plays dirty, he's charged with being a war criminal so it was pretty revolting seeing him being given the red carpet treatment by Trump in Alaska! I don't think anyone thinks Ukraine can "win" this war which was not of it's making. The question is how to keep the loss as small as possible and how to ensure Ukraine's future security. Russia's claim that NATO is a threat to Russia, is of course, utter rubbish. NATO is a purely defensive organisation. The question is will Russia risk invading a NATO member like Latvia or Lithuania? How Europe deals with the invasion of Ukraine will be very relative to what Putin might do in the future.

A good assessment of the situation.
It’s anyone’s guess what will actually happen now.

Trouble is authoritarian regimes are extremely effective at suppressing dissent. Look at what Putin subjected Navalny to, nerve agent in his underpants and then when that didn't kill him, trumped up charges in a prison in Siberia which did. People need to be very brave to stand up against dictators and let's be frank, most of us are not brave! Even leaving Russia doesn't make dissenters safe. People in Russia who dissent get put on lists, they are subjected to economic sanctions, lose the ability to travel freely, their family and friends are put at risk and they get locked up on trumped up charges. Anyone who thinks we should look the other way when Putin flexes his muscles IMO needs to remember this.

Above reply to Allira

Very true, foxie48 ☹