Will Trump really support Ukraine at meeting with Putin?

Unfortunately the most powerful countries in the world are run by despots.
We've had over 2000 years and we still haven't learned.

David49

Warfare is run by politicians not soldiers, they just follow orders, politicians never learn from history, they live for what power they can gain today.
We would never have gone to war in Afghanistan if they looked at the history books, Britain fought three Afghan wars eventually giving up, Russia lost their Afghan war yet our politicians thought they could do better
Plenty of other examples

Warfare is run by politicians not soldiers, they just follow orders, politicians never learn from history, they live for what power they can gain today.

Very true.
And then they die and along comes another despotic megalomaniac.

I feel so sorry for the Ukranians because they are not going to get the help that they need.

ronib

But we can hope that NATO has learnt from its mistakes but there’s no way future actions can be guaranteed surely? Allira

There is no way Putin's actions can be relied upon.

Following my quote of "If once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Danes," here is another - "Give him an inch and he will take an ell".

Warfare is run by politicians not soldiers, they just follow orders, politicians never learn from history, they live for what power they can gain today.
We would never have gone to war in Afghanistan if they looked at the history books, Britain fought three Afghan wars eventually giving up, Russia lost their Afghan war yet our politicians thought they could do better
Plenty of other examples

I am unclear why NATO is being brought into this conversation?

Ukraine will not be joining NATO as part of the deal.

I’ve been listening to a lot of commentary over the past week or so, and have come to the conclusion that Trump actually couldn’t care less about Ukraine or indeed Europe and that Europe as a whole would be much better off ploughing it’s own furrow - which of course means money - but I think a more mature and secure plan would come as a result.

NATO is not joining in this war, the issue is that Ukraine has asked to join NATO when this war ends. If Putin doesn't intend to invade Ukraine again, why on earth would he be worried by this? The point is NATO does not get involved if countries are at peace!

But we can hope that NATO has learnt from its mistakes but there’s no way future actions can be guaranteed surely? Allira

foxie48

Elegran

ronib

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

NATO does not occupy countries and demand to own and control them as a condition of stopping an invasion.

Further to this, NATO has taken steps to protect civilians, prevent ethnic cleansing and defend innocent people caught up in a war. I would call this "defensive" not "offensive".

NATO bombings are controversial, 'mistakes' have been made and questions are still ongoing.
The will be ultra-careful in future.

Elegran

ronib

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

NATO does not occupy countries and demand to own and control them as a condition of stopping an invasion.

Further to this, NATO has taken steps to protect civilians, prevent ethnic cleansing and defend innocent people caught up in a war. I would call this "defensive" not "offensive".

ronib

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

NATO does not occupy countries and demand to own and control them as a condition of stopping an invasion.

Putin would love to be remembered as the one who reunited and possibly increased the scattered parts of the Soviet Union. If part of Ukraine is ceded to him, how long would it take him to covet the rest of Ukraine?

Then what? Look at this map. From Ukraine Russia would have borders with Romania, Moldava, Hungary, slovakia, Poland and Belarus. It already borders Latvia and Estonia. Lithuania would soon be swallowed up - there is already a little Russian enclave between it and Poland.

NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, also Libya and Afghanistan. NATO engaged in military actions far beyond its borders often without a direct attack on its members. Less we forget.

ronib

foxie48 I believe that Putin is running rings round Trump, Zelensky, Starmer and the EU. Putin has an iron clad determination to do what he thinks is best for Russia. We might not go along with his methods but he won’t bend to the West.
The news headlines yesterday promised a lot but gave nothing.

That doesn't mean that the West should bow to him, although he would like that to happen.

He wants to keep the areas which he has gained by invading a sovereign state. if they are conceded to him, he will populate them byy settling russians there. He will build Russian factories, owned by Russia, run by Russian managers and supervisors and worked by ukrainians whose previous livelihoods were destroyed by the Russian invasion and who will be paid a minimal Russian wage. Profits from the Ukrainian source materials and the work done on them will go to Russia.

He will bring in "Russian security staff" to defend his assets there and control the workforce and inhabitants. More factories will be built and supply arms for the defence of his Russian enclave in Ukraine from what he perceives (or claims to) as a threat from the West.

With the area controlled and producing weapons for aggression as well as defence, he will be in a position to move against neighbouring countries which were once in the Soviet Bloc but are now sovereign countries in their own right - as is Ukraine - and who will not wish to be subject to Russian control. What do we do when that happens? Wish we had been more proactive earlier?

If once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Danes.

Yup, Putin plays dirty, he's charged with being a war criminal so it was pretty revolting seeing him being given the red carpet treatment by Trump in Alaska! I don't think anyone thinks Ukraine can "win" this war which was not of it's making. The question is how to keep the loss as small as possible and how to ensure Ukraine's future security. Russia's claim that NATO is a threat to Russia, is of course, utter rubbish. NATO is a purely defensive organisation. The question is will Russia risk invading a NATO member like Latvia or Lithuania? How Europe deals with the invasion of Ukraine will be very relative to what Putin might do in the future.

I think it's unfair to say he's running rings round Starmer and the EU, they are not negotiating with him and I think they neither trust him nor accept any of his reasons for his invading Ukraine. tbh I rather thought you believed his reasons looking back at previous posts. Zelensky is running a much better military campaign than Russia, is losing far fewer troops to injury and death but is hampered by lack of resources and mixed messages from the US about what support they will give and not give to Ukraine and even the support he gets has often been late. Trump is a tricky one. I think he enjoys European leaders constantly trying to massage his ego (unfortunately a necessary but unpleasant reality of how to keep Trump on board) but does he actually care about Ukraine? I don't think he does. He thinks big powerful countries should be able to bully their neighbours and take what they want. Actually Russia has been greatly weakened by this war and sanctions have affected it's economy. Is Putin playing Trump? Probably but I don't think Trump is that bothered!

foxie48

What's to explain, Ronib? My reply was to the post above mine by David but I'm intrigued by your comment that "he's out of our league" What do you mean by that?

My closing comment on my post of 15.56 yesterday covered that.

We are obsessed with following the rules of war, Putin is not he fights dirty, it’s very hard to win against an opponent who does that. To get any kind of victory you either have to exhaust his resources and he gives up, or win on the battlefield

We may well have the high moral ground but we loose the fight

Putin has said he may meet Zelensky in Moscow knowing that this would never happen. He is playing games with Trump.

foxie48 I believe that Putin is running rings round Trump, Zelensky, Starmer and the EU. Putin has an iron clad determination to do what he thinks is best for Russia. We might not go along with his methods but he won’t bend to the West.
The news headlines yesterday promised a lot but gave nothing.

What's to explain, Ronib? My reply was to the post above mine by David but I'm intrigued by your comment that "he's out of our league" What do you mean by that?

I don’t know how to explain foxie48 but Putin does not have a high opinion of the UK as a best guess. He probably has some good reasons which he is not sharing with me. Putin has never been a friend of the UK and is unlikely to ever want to be so. He’s out of our league….

Unfortunately I don't think Putin is likely to be friendly, since 2006 there have been 14 suspicious deaths of Russians in the UK. Clearly Putin doesn't worry about assassinating those of his citizens who disagree with him even when they are on British soil. Definitely not the act of a friendly neighbour.

foxie48

David I agree with you. China is watching how the Western world deals with the situation in Russia. I think Europe has woken up to the fact that we need to stick together and increase our military power but Trump's strange relationship with Putin really doesn't help anyone except Putin.

We all in Europe want Russia as a friendly neighbour having hostile neighbours is draining, before 2014 we were trading happily with them, even relying on them in some cases, they were relaxed and allowed their military to reduce even decay.

Ukraine changed all that, it hurt us it hurt them, just like WW2 end the fighting and look forward, that does not mean we drop our guard.

David I agree with you. China is watching how the Western world deals with the situation in Russia. I think Europe has woken up to the fact that we need to stick together and increase our military power but Trump's strange relationship with Putin really doesn't help anyone except Putin.

Unfortunately Putin will not run out of soldiers, ronib, for as long as Kim is willing to supply them from North Korea.
Was there an MSM article claiming that Chinese troops were also being deployed?