Would you fly a flag for your country?

Thanks for your post, foxie48.

Sorry folks, just diverting temporarily with a point of information, then back to the discussion.
Are flag poles phallic? The original maypoles were a phallic symbol and that's why the Puritans banned them.

Good post, foxie.

foxie48

Well having read the contributions added since I last visited this thread I have had my thoughts confirmed. Flag waving is definitely not about pride in our country. It is absolutely a dog whistle for those who are xenophobic, Islamophobic and racist.
"National heritage" which bit of that do we want to celebrate? People need to do a bit of historical study, we, British, have lots to celebrate and also a lot we should rue and learn from , just like every country. Our National Heritage is rich and diverse but some take an ethnocentric view to bolster a weak argument which is neither valid nor accurate.
Our National Heritage also includes migration and immigration. Try asking indigenous peoples in America, Australia, India, the Caribbean, huge swathes of Africa etc what they thought of our migration to their country and the extent to which we respected their culture. Not much, I should imagine.
My forbears worked the mines, scrubbed a subsistence living, fettled and made chain in the Black Country and tbh had pretty rubbish lives. My own father often didn't have shoes so he couldn't attend school and my extremely clever mother had to leave school at 14. I'm proud of their resilience and tenacity, perhaps this is why when I see refugees and asylum seekers I feel empathy not hatred and distrust.

The vast majority of people who arrive as immigrants just want to improve their lives and are prepared to work and contribute to our society not abuse us. Of course we need better and faster systems but not at the expense of our humanity.
There seems to be a complete lack of knowledge about the many diverse men who fought in our wars. No they weren't all white, there were 1.5 million men from all over the British Commonwealth who fought for our freedoms and they also should be celebrated.
I'm a liberal middle class, well educated woman and I'm neither annoyed nor offended by people waving the flag of St George. I've benefitted hugely from being born British, I was the first in my family to go to university, I've married into a family that for generations had the advantages that my own family could only dream of and frankly I want to share the advantages that I've had, not exclude people from them. So when I see the flag waving protesters I just feel sad for them as they clearly haven't benefitted as I have from being British and for me that's the real problem that needs addressing. How we make a more equitable society for everyone so no one gets left behind.

Excellent post foxie48.

Thank you!

Well having read the contributions added since I last visited this thread I have had my thoughts confirmed. Flag waving is definitely not about pride in our country. It is absolutely a dog whistle for those who are xenophobic, Islamophobic and racist.
"National heritage" which bit of that do we want to celebrate? People need to do a bit of historical study, we, British, have lots to celebrate and also a lot we should rue and learn from , just like every country. Our National Heritage is rich and diverse but some take an ethnocentric view to bolster a weak argument which is neither valid nor accurate.
Our National Heritage also includes migration and immigration. Try asking indigenous peoples in America, Australia, India, the Caribbean, huge swathes of Africa etc what they thought of our migration to their country and the extent to which we respected their culture. Not much, I should imagine.
My forbears worked the mines, scrubbed a subsistence living, fettled and made chain in the Black Country and tbh had pretty rubbish lives. My own father often didn't have shoes so he couldn't attend school and my extremely clever mother had to leave school at 14. I'm proud of their resilience and tenacity, perhaps this is why when I see refugees and asylum seekers I feel empathy not hatred and distrust.

The vast majority of people who arrive as immigrants just want to improve their lives and are prepared to work and contribute to our society not abuse us. Of course we need better and faster systems but not at the expense of our humanity.
There seems to be a complete lack of knowledge about the many diverse men who fought in our wars. No they weren't all white, there were 1.5 million men from all over the British Commonwealth who fought for our freedoms and they also should be celebrated.
I'm a liberal middle class, well educated woman and I'm neither annoyed nor offended by people waving the flag of St George. I've benefitted hugely from being born British, I was the first in my family to go to university, I've married into a family that for generations had the advantages that my own family could only dream of and frankly I want to share the advantages that I've had, not exclude people from them. So when I see the flag waving protesters I just feel sad for them as they clearly haven't benefitted as I have from being British and for me that's the real problem that needs addressing. How we make a more equitable society for everyone so no one gets left behind.

Caleo

nanafunny

I do not like the SNP flag my neighbour flies from huge flagpole in front garden.

If he flew a lion rampart or union jack I would be happy.

we all have our preferences.

Me too. Huge flagpoles are phallic.

Phallic?

I must have had a sheltered life.

We, like many others in our Normandy village, fly the flags of the liberating forces of the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada on VE day.
We remember those who gave their lives in the fight against Facism.

NotSpaghetti

I honestly don't know why I join in this type of conversation.

It's absurd, MadameFeuveral to think that we in the UK are "trying to tolerate" child abuse when even you say that "^we in the UK^" find these practices abhorrent!

Either we are trying to tolerate them or not.

Nobody I know is trying to tolerate them!

...and what has this to do with flags anyway?

I’m not sure either, NotSpaghetti. Perhaps you would like to read my comment again?

At what point did I claim that we were trying to tolerate child abuse in this country? (Although the grooming gang scandal could considered as such)

You made this point:

“We are quietly confident that we have a pretty fair system (at least as fair as many places) and that we believe in trying to include and value all people”

To which I replied:

“How is it possible to value and include practices that we in the UK find morally and legally wrong?”

And then listed examples of the various things which we do not wish to tolerate, value or include in our society, including FGM and child marriage. I do not wish to ‘value or include’ rapists.

So you surely agree with me - a society cannot ‘value and include all’, and tolerate those attitudes and beliefs which differ so radically from our own.

As for your comments about other nations’ “vainglorious boasting” and “puffery” - those are nations who are asserting their values, beliefs and allegiance with confidence.

We in Britain never needed to do that. We never needed to fly the flag with gusto, like Americans do. It was unnecessary. We had a confidence in ourselves, our values as a nation and the beliefs we held. All of those have been under sustained attack over the last few decades. It should never be a problem to fly the national flag of the country in that country.

Is it racist to show pride in one's national heritage? To demonstrate that you love the country you grew up in? The land where all your forebears are buried? The land that many of your family members, not so very long ago, fought and died to defend in war? I don’t think so.

For some people flying St. George's, it's also intended to annoy liberal middle-class elites. It's to say - “what, you're offended by the flag of England? In England? You don’t have a problem with the Pakistan flag being flown from public buildings in Birmingham. Are you sure you're not the crazy one?”

Eloethan

We have a significant problem of our own, with it being reported that something like 50% of women in this country have experienced sexual harassment and assault - and there are many "homegrown" cases of children who have been sexually assaulted either within their own families or by religious figures or members of activity-based groups.

Ask social workers if all these issues arise because of the presence of asylum seekers and I think they will put you right.

I doubt we can stop 100% of rape crimes. Some British people will commit rape.

But we can absolutely stop importing foreign rapists. We know this is a serious problem. To pretend otherwise at this point is disingenuous.

Are you unaware of the grooming gang scandal - thousands of white, working class British girls victimised across the country by gangs mainly of Pakistani origin? And no help forthcoming from either the police or the social workers of which you speak - because they didn’t want to be perceived as racist.

Our own UK data, as well as Swedish and Danish crime data found an overrepresentation of immigrants in rape and sexual assault crimes.

From the Ministry of Justice figures for 2024, Afghans were convicted of rape around 15 times more than native British nationals. Committing 1.1% of the rapes, while being 0.1% of the population. That's 11 times over representation.

If the powers that be decide we do, in fact, need large-scale immigration, at least we should be selecting in such a way that they are drastically less likely to be included in negative statistics.

I honestly don't know why I join in this type of conversation.

It's absurd, MadameFeuveral to think that we in the UK are "trying to tolerate" child abuse when even you say that "^we in the UK^" find these practices abhorrent!

Either we are trying to tolerate them or not.

Nobody I know is trying to tolerate them!

...and what has this to do with flags anyway?

nanna8

MadameFeuveral I think you have hit the nail on the head,so to speak. None so blind as those that cannot see and when they finally do see, too late.

Thank you. I quite agree.

MadameFeuveral I think you have hit the nail on the head,so to speak. None so blind as those that cannot see and when they finally do see, too late.

We have a significant problem of our own, with it being reported that something like 50% of women in this country have experienced sexual harassment and assault - and there are many "homegrown" cases of children who have been sexually assaulted either within their own families or by religious figures or members of activity-based groups.

Ask social workers if all these issues arise because of the presence of asylum seekers and I think they will put you right.

Primrose53

*MadameFeuveral*. That is an amazing post. 👏

I agree. 👏👏👏

Caleo

nanafunny

I do not like the SNP flag my neighbour flies from huge flagpole in front garden.

If he flew a lion rampart or union jack I would be happy.

we all have our preferences.

Me too. Huge flagpoles are phallic.

Well, that has never occurred to me at all.

Perhaps it's just that I've never seen a flag on a phallus (not that I've seen many of the latter either!).

Thank you Primrose, I appreciate that.

I’m quite frankly terrified for the future because it’s not going to be pleasant. When we reach such a pitch that people now say openly we can’t find a way out of this situation politically- that should scare everyone enough to at least try.

MadameFeuveral. That is an amazing post. 👏

“We are quietly confident that we have a pretty fair system (at least as fair as many places) and that we believe in trying to include and value all people”

The issue we face is that many of those arriving in the country don’t share your values, your culture and want no part of it. They have nothing for distain for it, in fact.

The modern world is such that no one has to take part in wider UK society if they don’t wish to. They can live in ethnic enclaves, speaking their own language, shop for their preferred foods in their own shops, watch tv and moves in their own language. It’s perfectly possible to live entirely in one’s own culture, never engaging with that of the host nation.

Added to which, I’ll be frank: how is it possible to value and include practices that we in the UK find morally and legally wrong? Do you wish to tolerate and value those who practice FGM? Or child marriage? Sexual contact with minors? Those who believe in apostasy?

These are very real problems we now have to face as a result of naive, sentimental politics which believes that all people are fundamentally the same, hold the same values and will rub along perfectly all right if everyone is just tolerant enough. It’s fantasy, it doesn’t work, and we are now looking at the results in front of us.

Sarnia

sundowngirl

MaizieD

Primrose53

Sarnia

PoliticsNerd

Sarnia

Yes I would and I have on occasions. I would have the National Anthem sung in every school in the country every morning too.

Good Lord! Do you want to turn this country into America?

The Americans fly their flags and sing their National Anthem. It is their country and they are proud of it.
Here we are far too concerned with upsetting other cultures with words like Christmas and flying our flags. We almost apologise for our culture and beliefs.
I don't like all American trends but being patriotic is one I would happily follow.

Well said Sarnia 👏👏👏

We have long been told what we can and can’t do in our kids schools regarding religious celebrations like Nativity plays, Christmas, Easter and so on. Americans wouldn’t put up with that!

Oh dear. More old chestnuts being trotted out.

Why are you being so nasty?? Don’t you take any pride in your country? It’s not a good look keep putting people down like you do

Well said. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

This seems to be the way now with posters who are not happy that people do not agree with them. They have to have the last word and they make it as nasty as they can.

Sarnia
It is ludicrous in my opinion to say
we are too concerned with upsetting other cultures with words like Christmas and flying our flags. We almost apologise for our culture and beliefs.

What some of us are most happy with/about our culture and beliefs is our lack of self-important "puffery" and vainglorious boasting which is rife in some other places.

We are quietly confident that we have a pretty fair system (at least as fair as many places) and that we believe in trying to include and value all people.
We are also aware that we don't get everything right. There is lots of room for improvement here.

Let's save the flags for government buildings and the waving of them for sporting events and for days of celebration.

nanafunny

I do not like the SNP flag my neighbour flies from huge flagpole in front garden.

If he flew a lion rampart or union jack I would be happy.

we all have our preferences.

Me too. Huge flagpoles are phallic.

Casdon

I’ve come to the conclusion that the saying ‘You Do You’ applies to this. It’s a circuitous argument, If you want to fly a flag, do so. You will be judged by others who don’t agree with you, many of whom are other British people, just as you will judge those who aren’t flying a flag.

I have to say that often you are the voice of reason. We may not always agree but I do wish some rather vociferous posters could learn something from you!

I’ve come to the conclusion that the saying ‘You Do You’ applies to this. It’s a circuitous argument, If you want to fly a flag, do so. You will be judged by others who don’t agree with you, many of whom are other British people, just as you will judge those who aren’t flying a flag.

sundowngirl

MaizieD

Primrose53

Sarnia

PoliticsNerd

Sarnia

Yes I would and I have on occasions. I would have the National Anthem sung in every school in the country every morning too.

Good Lord! Do you want to turn this country into America?

The Americans fly their flags and sing their National Anthem. It is their country and they are proud of it.
Here we are far too concerned with upsetting other cultures with words like Christmas and flying our flags. We almost apologise for our culture and beliefs.
I don't like all American trends but being patriotic is one I would happily follow.

Well said Sarnia 👏👏👏

We have long been told what we can and can’t do in our kids schools regarding religious celebrations like Nativity plays, Christmas, Easter and so on. Americans wouldn’t put up with that!

Oh dear. More old chestnuts being trotted out.

Why are you being so nasty?? Don’t you take any pride in your country? It’s not a good look keep putting people down like you do

Well said. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

MaizieD

Primrose53

Sarnia

PoliticsNerd

Sarnia

Yes I would and I have on occasions. I would have the National Anthem sung in every school in the country every morning too.

Good Lord! Do you want to turn this country into America?

The Americans fly their flags and sing their National Anthem. It is their country and they are proud of it.
Here we are far too concerned with upsetting other cultures with words like Christmas and flying our flags. We almost apologise for our culture and beliefs.
I don't like all American trends but being patriotic is one I would happily follow.

Well said Sarnia 👏👏👏

We have long been told what we can and can’t do in our kids schools regarding religious celebrations like Nativity plays, Christmas, Easter and so on. Americans wouldn’t put up with that!

Oh dear. More old chestnuts being trotted out.

Why are you being so nasty?? Don’t you take any pride in your country? It’s not a good look keep putting people down like you do