Would you fly a flag for your country?

Galaxy

You don't think there is an issue where a group of people lecture another group of people on the flags they wave whilst proudly displaying a range of flags themselves.
So those currently on twitter who are most irate about the waving of flags of course have their twitter bios emblazoned with pride flags, palestine flags, etc.

It’s only the English flag and the Union flag that gives some the heeby jeebies.🤷🏼‍♀️
I agree with you, either fly the flags or don’t or enjoy seeing them flown or don’t.

You don't think there is an issue where a group of people lecture another group of people on the flags they wave whilst proudly displaying a range of flags themselves.
So those currently on twitter who are most irate about the waving of flags of course have their twitter bios emblazoned with pride flags, palestine flags, etc.

There is certainly a problem with "pride' Doodledog. Pride can be a virtue when it promotes self-respect and positive motivation, but it can become problematic if it leads to arrogance or disrespect.

Flags can be used to show both self-respect and respect for our country. They can also be used to show arrogance and disrespect both for the country and citizens of that country and of others.

I don't see how the latter can be seen as showing "respect" for our country. It it exactly what invaders do to the flags of the country they are trying to subjugate.

I don't have that much of a problem with pride, I don't think , although it is a funny word, I suppose. Lots of people are proud of their cultures, they celebrate them, etc. I am happy for that to happen. My father was born in Germany, despite their terrible history, he was proud of some particular aspects of his country/culture. A ridiculous example is that modern Germany is streets ahead of this country in terms of littering ( lack of it) and recycling, he was I think 'proud' of that and was very critical of that aspect of Britain.

Galaxy

Oh I am not religious, so I don't mind a bit of sinning.

I suspect that is deliberately missing the point . I am not religious either, but my point, if I really need to spell it out, is that 'pride' is not necessarily the good thing that is suggested by the concept of 'pride in one's country'.

My understanding is that pride was the original sin - the notion that individual feelings and desires are above all else (including God if you believe in one), and it is considered 'deadly' because it leads to other sins, such as greed, avarice, anger and so on. It is not necessary to be religious to understand that concept, is it?

In any case, I think it's understandable to feel lucky to live here. I certainly do. I feel glad that I was born in a traditionally tolerant country, with all the freedoms we still have. I don't want to live anywhere else (and would feel the same if I were rich as Croesus and paying a lot of tax).

But what right do I have to feel pride in the things that were mentioned upthread (education of women and non-execution of gay people)? Or in anything else that underpins the fact that I still feel lucky and glad to be here? I didn't make those things happen, much as I am delighted that someone did. The way 'pride' is being used on this thread seems to me a perfect example of how it leads to other 'sins' (or whatever you want to call them, I won't nit-pick) such as intolerance of others, exclusivity and lack of respect for our fellow humans.

If I flew a flag it would be to show allegiance to a group. Should I feel it necessary to parade my allegiance to the UK (or England, as I am English) then of course I would - why not? It would be akin to wearing a football scarf or a rosette in a particular colour during an election campaign - it's a symbol of that allegiance used to show those 'on the other side' that there is strength in numbers. I would be 100% behind Britain in the event of a war, so would fly a flag then (although it would be in the hope that the enemy never gained enough ground to set eyes on it).

IMO, however, the idea that allegiance to Britain is synonymous with turning away people who are fleeing war or persecution is fundamentally flawed. If there were more honesty about this, and those who want to burn down hostels and frighten refugees had a flag of their own I certainly wouldn't fly that one, and I am deeply unhappy with the way the values of those people are being subsumed into the values that make me glad to live in the UK.

Galaxy

But who is forcing it on others. Fly a flag, don't fly a flag. Free to do either, hopefully.

This is about rather more than who owns thd British flag and was from the OP's declaration that I was born in England but am of Irish heritage.

Give over with the Nazi /Hitler comparisons already! Always trotted out when posters have nothing else to say.

I have a lot to say, Oreo, much of it unprintable or on a personal level that would get me banned from the forum.

I just wondered how people would tolerate the mass flying of the most 'extreme' flag I could think of.

Not making any comparison, just wondering how far tolerance would stretch.

(Of course, we have seen swastikas on our streets on occasion quite recently)

Driving through an Essex village the last week (population under 1,000), I was surprised to see a very large number of Union Flags hung from lamp-posts and other suitable street furnishings. Then I remembered it was VJ Day; I do hope that was why the flags were flying.

But who is forcing it on others. Fly a flag, don't fly a flag. Free to do either, hopefully.

Oreo

Give over with the Nazi /Hitler comparisons already! Always trotted out when posters have nothing else to say.
Two things…
1. There are some groups/ people in the UK who are ultra right wing racists who have hijacked our flags for their own cause.
2. There are very many people in England who would enjoy seeing our own flag flown much more from municipal buildings and in bunting in towns during Summer and for those who have a flagpole and wish to fly it all year round.
If this happened on a regular basis then the first group would lose all claim to it.

So you can vote for that if it's your most precious principle. What a minority should not be allowed to do is force it on others - which is what you are suggesting.

Oreo do you read other's posts or just make a assumption and decide they should be stopped?

If someone sees certain actions as reminiscent of Nazi tactics, their comparison is a way of signaling the gravity of those concerns.

Are you saying you would stop me and others making the gravity of our concerns clear - just as you make yours clear?

Give over with the Nazi /Hitler comparisons already! Always trotted out when posters have nothing else to say.
Two things…
1. There are some groups/ people in the UK who are ultra right wing racists who have hijacked our flags for their own cause.
2. There are very many people in England who would enjoy seeing our own flag flown much more from municipal buildings and in bunting in towns during Summer and for those who have a flagpole and wish to fly it all year round.
If this happened on a regular basis then the first group would lose all claim to it.

The thing is Mazie you think I am enabling it but I think it is the authoritarian approach to speech, protest etc, the demonisation of those who ask questions about immigration etc that has enabled it. We just think the enablers are different.
There is legislation relating to certain categories of speech PN ( and I have massive concerns about how that is implemented) but it is not as simple as causing distress. Your speech causes me distress, so what.

Galaxy

But they can suggest legislation because of the thoughts they think people have.

No, the legislation may prevent you speaking in public with intent to cause harassment, alarm or distress or cause a breach of the peace, to but, as yet, no one stops you thinking. Are you suggesting such restrictions should be done away with. If not, what do you mean?

Dismissing all comparisons as trivial or meaningless ignores the fact that people often draw parallels to emphasise certain behaviors or ideas they find troubling. If someone sees certain actions as reminiscent of Nazi tactics, their comparison is a way of signaling the gravity of those concerns.

Nazis tactics were to try to suppress free thought so who do you see as following that play-book? In fact which group have written their own play-book very akin to nazi thinking?

Galaxy

But they can suggest legislation because of the thoughts they think people have.

🤷‍♂️
My thoughts are my own.

Galaxy

Perhaps some of us think control of thoughts is nazi like behaviour. Or many other things that the progressives do. Perhaps we disagree on who the nazis are.
I loathe the use of this comparison, it has no impact anymore because it has been thrown at pretty much everyone but I could make similar comparisons if I wanted to.

I think you, and all those applying spurious arguments about patriotism and ‘regaining our flag* (echoing the racists who are flying them) ) are enabling this descent into some sort of normalisation of racist hatred and division by allowing it free expression.

Actually lecturing those who object on the language they use, for calling a spade a spade, to describe the ‘movement’, and those who support it, feels like a perversion of values somewhere along the line.

But they can suggest legislation because of the thoughts they think people have.

Nobody can control our thoughts you know.

Perhaps some of us think control of thoughts is nazi like behaviour. Or many other things that the progressives do. Perhaps we disagree on who the nazis are.
I loathe the use of this comparison, it has no impact anymore because it has been thrown at pretty much everyone but I could make similar comparisons if I wanted to.

Allira

It is not the national flag of any country, MaizieD
Therein lies the difference.

It wasn't the national flag of Germany either until it was Included among the so-called Nuremberg Race Laws when the Reich Flag Law (September 15, 1935) declared that the swastika flag would constitute the official national flag of the German Reich.

Hand your country over to extremists and we all should know from past and recent history (in the USA) that all the laws that currently ensure our freedoms can be turned against us. Some seem to have obliterated history from their minds, if they ever knew it.

I've seen a mention of Animal Farm on these threads previously, but it seems to me that some have no idea who the pigs are in our time.

It is not the national flag of any country, MaizieD
Therein lies the difference.

So everyone on this thread would be perfectly happy to wake up one morning and find Nazi flags fluttering from their lamp posts? It being a perfectly OK ancient expression of spirituality for some religions...



Would it, too provoke a long thread on Gnet full of specious arguments and a sudden need in some to express their spirituality?

Just curious as to how far toleration can stretch.

What laws do you think could be enacted about say for example someone putting up a flag in their home.

Galaxy

You think people shouldn't be allowed to fly flags because of the thoughts they may hold in their head?

No. That would be silly. We have freedom of expression but it is not unlimited. Various laws cover this.

Galaxy

Oh I am not religious, so I don't mind a bit of sinning.

😁