Torsten Bell

TB suggests thet the reason why political discourse feels gloomy is because the country feels gloomy. Why? Because they are having a tough time and they want things sorted. He points out that the old are gloomier than the young despite the economic data that the old are doing relatively better than younger generations. The interviewer then pointed out that TB is arguing against generational wars. TB pointed out that we live as families looking after the young and then being looked after by them. He doesn't think people think in terms of generational wars and said he didn't think they should.

His view was that we do need to understand the changes that have happened. So we do need to understand, that poverty has moved, from in the 1990's being a story of very high child poverty and very high pensioner poverty. Whereas, child poverty has stayed particularly high, especially amongst larger families, with pensioners poverty over the 25 year view. It's come down very significantly. It's about halved (as of 11 months ago). He then explained the reasons.

He went on to say, looking at international comparisons, everywhere is done worse, in general, since the financial crisis amongst advanced economies. If you look at the USA they had seen slightly better growth than us the benefits of which have generally gone to younger people. In the UK we saw weak growth with little going to younger workers.

(I'm taking another break)

Allira

Well, sometimes it's pointless typing out a post which takes some research and time and then Gransnet says Aw Snap and it disappears.

Summaries are on ThisisMoney and other outlets.

"This is Money" is not an unbiassed source. It was originally a spin-off from the Daily Mail and appeals to the same readership. What are the other outlets? I'd rather listen to/read what Bell actually said rather than second hand spin.

Oh dear, well, I'm not a Daily Mail reader so thank you for pointing that out.

I’m humbly and sincerely asking - what is it he proposes that the Government actually does to improve things.

In practical terms.

Im not really interested in the philosophical rhetoric..
I just really want - This is what we want to achieve and this is how we’re going to do it.

I have heard of T Bell but didn’t know much about him, was prepared to read about him and join in the thread until I read the way that PN answered posters.
The above answer to Allira is a masterclass in passive aggression.
Neither Allira nor any poster on here is a ‘Mr angry’ and you had no need to ask AI anything as it isn’t relevant to this discussion.
What it is, is a deliberate insult.

Lathyrus3

I’m humbly and sincerely asking - what is it he proposes that the Government actually does to improve things.

In practical terms.

Im not really interested in the philosophical rhetoric..
I just really want - This is what we want to achieve and this is how we’re going to do it.

I don't think he's actually proposed anything - not in his capacity as an MP or even adviser to Rachel Reeves.

However, he's worked in public policy in the past and has made various suggestions based on facts. These are now being dragged up.

He's going to get the same treatment as Rachel Reeves. On the one hand he'll be smeared as a neo-liberal. On the other, he'l be smeared as a leftie with a grudge against the elderly. That's what happens when you start from facts and policy rather than watching your back in the politics game. People don't understand policy. They'd rather take their opinions second-hand without looking at first-hand sources.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I don’t know why it should be like this on here, can’t we discuss politics without it?

I recall watching that interview a few months ago. Bell used to write a column in the Observer, before he became an MP, so I'm familiarish with his thoughts.

The problem I have with him, is the problem I have with just about every mainstream commentator on economics, and with the story that is promoted by governments of any colour, and by all the political parties.

That is that they continuously perpetrate the myth that taxes are needed to fund spending and any shortfall has to be 'borrowed, by means of bond sales. And that deficits are bad.

While ever MPs in ministerial office in the Treasury hold to that belief nothing will ever change in regard to growth and a more equable distribution of wealth.

Heterodox economist, Prof. Steve Keen (one of the very few economists who predicted the 2008 Global financial Crisis) has an interesting video pointing out that most influential economists promote economic thinking which has been empirically proven to be wrong (in one case, an economist appeared to be ignoring his own research)

Some people might find it interesting. It has very little to do with anything I've just said about taxes and spending (which has also been empirically proved) , but it's interesting to see how evidence is ignored by the ;profession'.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb6HCIVMzu4

(note, he appears to speak incredibly fast but you can adjust the play speed to .75 which makes it sound more normal)

Oreo

I don’t know why it should be like this on here, can’t we discuss politics without it?

That would be good. Sorry, I missed your contribution to the discussion.

And you’ll carry on missing it.

Oreo

And you’ll carry on missing it.

What was the point of your intervention (apart to have a go at PoliticsNerd)?

To say that I am put off the thread, even tho am interested in politics and would have read about TBell and contributed to the discussion.
Since you ask.

growstuff

Oreo

And you’ll carry on missing it.

What was the point of your intervention (apart to have a go at PoliticsNerd)?

Well, I do think a few posters have been upset by unwarranted attacks on them over some time.

Sometimes people reach a point where they either have to retaliate or leave the forum.

We are all entitled to contribute without being attacked, within the guidelines.

Can't people just leave a thread if they are not enjoying it?

He does at least seem to care about child poverty and about the shame of a country like ours needing to have food banks.
I do wish our Government would care more.
I don't know if it is just my Facebook feed but all I ever get from the Labour Party is about immigration, which in my mind is a lot less of a concern than children going hungry.

Allira

He's an enemy of ordinary, hardworking people and of pensioners.
He is more rightwing than many Tories.

That kind of negates GG13's "tax, tax & more tax" doesn't it? Suppose I'll have to read the link to find out about this Torsten Bell person.

Does anyone ( other than Torsten &Ed Miliband) remember the Ed Stone.
It didn’t go down well, did it. 😉

Ilovecheese

Can't people just leave a thread if they are not enjoying it?

Yes, of course, Ilovecheese

but not enjoying it is totally different to being attacked for no reason.

valdavi

Allira

He's an enemy of ordinary, hardworking people and of pensioners.
He is more rightwing than many Tories.

That kind of negates GG13's "tax, tax & more tax" doesn't it? Suppose I'll have to read the link to find out about this Torsten Bell person.

He prefers the types of taxes which people do not notice at first - what I call sly taxes.

What is wrong with an upfront small increase in income tax so everyone knows where they are instead of sneaky taxes?

Of course, if they said they were putting 1p or 2p on income tax they may think that they wouldn't get elected.

Instead they put up taxes which cause everyday prices and costs to rise. That won't wash in the long term because people will remember that at the next election.

Allira

growstuff

Oreo

And you’ll carry on missing it.

What was the point of your intervention (apart to have a go at PoliticsNerd)?

Well, I do think a few posters have been upset by unwarranted attacks on them over some time.

Sometimes people reach a point where they either have to retaliate or leave the forum.

We are all entitled to contribute without being attacked, within the guidelines.

Leaving the forum completely is certainly tempting (but not because of PoliticsNerd).

Ilovecheese

Can't people just leave a thread if they are not enjoying it?

You would have thought so.

Allira

valdavi

Allira

He's an enemy of ordinary, hardworking people and of pensioners.
He is more rightwing than many Tories.

That kind of negates GG13's "tax, tax & more tax" doesn't it? Suppose I'll have to read the link to find out about this Torsten Bell person.

He prefers the types of taxes which people do not notice at first - what I call sly taxes.

What is wrong with an upfront small increase in income tax so everyone knows where they are instead of sneaky taxes?

Of course, if they said they were putting 1p or 2p on income tax they may think that they wouldn't get elected.

Instead they put up taxes which cause everyday prices and costs to rise. That won't wash in the long term because people will remember that at the next election.

Where has he talked about taxes? I'd like to read it.

What do you mean by sneaky taxes?

There are fairer and more progressive taxes than income tax.

Oh come on, it's easy to Google!

Taxation is his area of expertise!