Torsten Bell

MaizieD

I didn’t say that Bell is an economist, growstuff, just that he's like all the rest in perpetrating the myth that taxation funds spending, and the national budget is like a household budget.

Additionally the Treasury seems to be well aligned to neoliberal economic beliefs and that will never lead to progressive taxation and a more equable distribution of the national wealth, however earnestly MPs may express a desire to do more for the disadvantaged.

Agreed. I just wish people would go back to sources rather than rely on second tittle tattle, which inevitably suffers from a form of Chinese Whispers.

I'm really not defending Bell. I've been aware of him for some time because I read Resolution Foundation reports. Usually, they are about policy rather than specifics such as taxation. Their data is well-presented and researched, so is always useful. They might, for example, write a report about deprived areas, but they don't come up with anything more than vague suggestions.

What happens is that those suggestions sometimes get picked up by scare-mongerers and misrepresented. They're not economists, so they make simple suggestions. For example, there's too much equality, therefore tax rich people more. Actually, wealth does need to be taxed more highly, but not in the simple way people think.

Doodledog

MaizieD

As a percentage of their income from all sources higher rate taxpayers don't ‘pay more’. In percentage terms they usually end up paying less. because of exemptions and allowances and different rates on different sources of income.

I thought we were talking about pension contributions from income tax.

We (or at least I was) talking about the fact that pension contributions are paid before income tax is deducted. Therefore, taxpayers are effectively receiving extra from the Treasury. This support is received at marginal rate, so taxpayers who pay 40% receive a much higher "subsidy" from the Treasury.

MaizieD

As a percentage of their income from all sources higher rate taxpayers don't ‘pay more’. In percentage terms they usually end up paying less. because of exemptions and allowances and different rates on different sources of income.

I thought we were talking about pension contributions from income tax.

PoliticsNerd

^One form of tax which would bring in billions to the Treasury is reducing the tax exemption on pension contributions to basic rate. I cannot think of one argument why it's fair for the Treasury to subsidise people with higher incomes more than they do those paying basic rate tax^.

Agre growstuff. Would you include that in the tidying up of current taxes?

Why not? It would be far easier than a brand new tax like a wealth tax.

I'm not sure how it currently operates. Presumably HMRC is somehow linked to employers, who are told how much pension contribution to deduct and then work out the tax on the remainder. An adjustment would need to be made, so that all deductions only attracted 20% exemption. It can't be that difficult.

Someone/thing stole and "e"!

One form of tax which would bring in billions to the Treasury is reducing the tax exemption on pension contributions to basic rate. I cannot think of one argument why it's fair for the Treasury to subsidise people with higher incomes more than they do those paying basic rate tax.

Agre growstuff. Would you include that in the tidying up of current taxes?

I've also found an article where he mention Land Tax but doesn't seem keen. (It was written some time ago so he may have changed his mind).

I've heard quite a bit about them recently, generally starting with conversion of Council Tax to a land tax but eventually ensuring those like the Duke of Westminster pay a realistic tax on the land they own in Central London.

In his book "Great Britain?" he is almost annoyingly positive. On Wealth Taxes he seems to feel that making the wealth taxes we already have work is a better place to start. I totally agree with this but also believe a one off wealth tax (remembering exactly who the wealthy are) would help boost growth.

As a percentage of their income from all sources higher rate taxpayers don't ‘pay more’. In percentage terms they usually end up paying less. because of exemptions and allowances and different rates on different sources of income.

I didn’t say that Bell is an economist, growstuff, just that he's like all the rest in perpetrating the myth that taxation funds spending, and the national budget is like a household budget.

Additionally the Treasury seems to be well aligned to neoliberal economic beliefs and that will never lead to progressive taxation and a more equable distribution of the national wealth, however earnestly MPs may express a desire to do more for the disadvantaged.

I suppose the argument would be that higher rate taxpayers already pay more, and when people reach the additional rate they often stop full-time working as they can’t divert money into pensions? I agree with you in principle though.

I know there are other forms of taxation, but they have been called ‘sneaky’ on this thread alone, and on others people have said it is ‘obviously’ income tax that should rise. FEIW I disagree, as taxing people who are contributing goods and services and not those who do neither doesn’t seem fair. VAT is tax, but I don’t think it applies to someone spending money someone else has earned. If you give me the money to pick up something for you while I’m at the shops, you pay the tax on it, not me.

Doodledog

I am neither an economist nor a politician, as is obvious from my posts, but how can low taxes in a low wage economy possibly work? People seem to prefer income tax to general taxation, but wages have fallen in the UK, and a combination of demographic changes and increasing numbers of people not working because of illness means that the tax burden is falling on fewer and fewer people, many of whom are struggling financially already. We need a radical shift in the tax system.

I haven't watched the video (I struggle to do so as it would disturb Mr Dog), but will try to watch it tomorrow when he's not here.

I'm not sure what you mean by general taxation.

Last time I looked income tax only accounted for about 25% of the Treasury's income.

There are many other forms of taxation. All of them affect different demographics.

One form of tax which would bring in billions to the Treasury is reducing the tax exemption on pension contributions to basic rate. I cannot think of one argument why it's fair for the Treasury to subsidise people with higher incomes more than they do those paying basic rate tax.

There are others.

Casdon

He’s a neo-liberal conservative communist then growstuff, the best and worst of men all rolled into one - truly a man of the moment.

Obviously a mixed-up whizz kid!
😀

I agree with GG13 👍🏻

I am neither an economist nor a politician, as is obvious from my posts, but how can low taxes in a low wage economy possibly work? People seem to prefer income tax to general taxation, but wages have fallen in the UK, and a combination of demographic changes and increasing numbers of people not working because of illness means that the tax burden is falling on fewer and fewer people, many of whom are struggling financially already. We need a radical shift in the tax system.

I haven't watched the video (I struggle to do so as it would disturb Mr Dog), but will try to watch it tomorrow when he's not here.

He’s a neo-liberal conservative communist then growstuff, the best and worst of men all rolled into one - truly a man of the moment.

He's certainly on to a loser. On the one hand a neo-liberal, on the other I've just seen the following on Twitter: "spoken like a true Communist". Ah well! The public always speaks "common sense"

Allira

Oh come on, it's easy to Google!

Taxation is his area of expertise!

No, it isn't. Policy is.

Maizie Although Wiki describes Bell as an economist, as far as I can see he's never worked as an economist, but in policy. He produces the data which shows, for example, which groups have benefited least over the last 15 years. He believes in greater equality and makes the case for greater fairness, but leaves it up to others to find solutions.

Oh come on, it's easy to Google!

Taxation is his area of expertise!

What do you mean by sneaky taxes?

There are fairer and more progressive taxes than income tax.

Allira

valdavi

Allira

He's an enemy of ordinary, hardworking people and of pensioners.
He is more rightwing than many Tories.

That kind of negates GG13's "tax, tax & more tax" doesn't it? Suppose I'll have to read the link to find out about this Torsten Bell person.

He prefers the types of taxes which people do not notice at first - what I call sly taxes.

What is wrong with an upfront small increase in income tax so everyone knows where they are instead of sneaky taxes?

Of course, if they said they were putting 1p or 2p on income tax they may think that they wouldn't get elected.

Instead they put up taxes which cause everyday prices and costs to rise. That won't wash in the long term because people will remember that at the next election.

Where has he talked about taxes? I'd like to read it.

Ilovecheese

Can't people just leave a thread if they are not enjoying it?

You would have thought so.

Allira

growstuff

Oreo

And you’ll carry on missing it.

What was the point of your intervention (apart to have a go at PoliticsNerd)?

Well, I do think a few posters have been upset by unwarranted attacks on them over some time.

Sometimes people reach a point where they either have to retaliate or leave the forum.

We are all entitled to contribute without being attacked, within the guidelines.

Leaving the forum completely is certainly tempting (but not because of PoliticsNerd).

valdavi

Allira

He's an enemy of ordinary, hardworking people and of pensioners.
He is more rightwing than many Tories.

That kind of negates GG13's "tax, tax & more tax" doesn't it? Suppose I'll have to read the link to find out about this Torsten Bell person.

He prefers the types of taxes which people do not notice at first - what I call sly taxes.

What is wrong with an upfront small increase in income tax so everyone knows where they are instead of sneaky taxes?

Of course, if they said they were putting 1p or 2p on income tax they may think that they wouldn't get elected.

Instead they put up taxes which cause everyday prices and costs to rise. That won't wash in the long term because people will remember that at the next election.