I thought the Labour party was meant to be the political party for and of the 'woking class'

in the party that was formed from and by people who share A's background.

Are you deliberately forgetting/ignoring the fact that middle class socialists had a role in setting up the Labour Party, MOnica? It has never been an exclusive party of 'the workers'.

I think we've now got the message that you don't like Angela Rayner, though...

Doodledog

*Work is work whatever it is.*
I agree. I don’t know why you quoted my post though. Nothing I said (or believe) contradicts that.

I was agreeing with you 😁

Then Work is work whatever it is was just a general statement.

"Hardworking families" - although as families can include babies, toddlers, children, I'm not sure what that means.

Work is work whatever it is.
I agree. I don’t know why you quoted my post though. Nothing I said (or believe) contradicts that.

Plunger

Can someone please define a 'working class person' or even a 'worker'? You would think doctors don't work, bankers don't work and for that matter, MPs don't work. Round here plumbers, painter and decorators, roofers etc all earn as much if not more than many doctors.Does the term working class have any real meaning now? Personally I doubt it.

You cannot, which is why I use the terms within parenthesese.

Anyone who relies for the income from employment to finance their life is a 'working' person - and that is about 99% of us in our time.

The relationship between income and occupation that said the further you were from the factory floor or shop counter, the more you were paid has long ceased to be true.

This is why I started the thread. When AR and her supporters were waving her 'working class' credentials around to justify her too clever by half behaviour, it sounded such a peculiar thing to do, waving this old fashioned meaningless phrase around, especially when the people doing it were in the party that was formed from and by people who share A's background.

Sorry but I'm still wondering abou the carer as donkey comment.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding...did you mean it's a heavy load and undervalued?

I don't know what class I am. I've worked as a business owner, as self employed, a social worker, as a kitchen assistant, and an office worker. So I think I'm just in my own class lol
Seriously there is so much social mobility now that our class system doesn't exist any longer. I know a lord and lady who live in a small end terraced house on a big estate as they ran out of money. And the son of an admiral living with his wife in a council house.

Doodledog

Plunger

Can someone please define a 'working class person' or even a 'worker'? You would think doctors don't work, bankers don't work and for that matter, MPs don't work. Round here plumbers, painter and decorators, roofers etc all earn as much if not more than many doctors.Does the term working class have any real meaning now? Personally I doubt it.

Whilst I absolutely agree with what you are saying, Plunger, I also think that your post is an example of what I said upthread and for which I was castigated and called 'out of date'.

Plumbers, decorators etc have been separated from doctors and the fact that they (the old 'working class') earn as much as someone in an traditionally high-status occupation is used as a way of showing that class as we knew it is dead. If that were the case, why are plumbers et al the example given? Why is it of note that they earn a decent salary?

IMO, we are on the cusp of a huge shake up of occupational status. Many jobs that used to be highly skilled will become routine with the encroachment of AI, and it will be those with artisanal skill that will command the higher salaries, as their work will be harder for computers to replicate. It will be interesting to see whether plumbers, electricians and decorators will be awarded the status of, say, accountants and lawyers, and whether they, like Victorian clerks, will be socially 'downgraded' as their salaries fall.

Maybe society will become more egalitarian overall, with less snobbery and division. Or maybe not.

From recent experience, decorators charge per day per person but a day is a variable length of time. It could be as much as seven hours or as little as four.

Certainly they don't seem to work as long hours as some in many professional jobs. Certainly not as long days as farmers, for instance.

Work is work whatever it is.

MayBee70

Yes let’s have more working class MP’s. Preferably women. So we can mock their accent, poor grammar and clothes sense. And euphorically watch them fall from Grace because they don’t know how to go about legal tax avoidance…

and weasly solicitor says "we did not give her tax advice" Why ever not? She is neither a solicitor nor a tax accountant, but somehow she is at fault for leaving the purchase to people who should have known better, while she got on with her own job?

Maremia

Does it really matter which 'class' you believe yourself to belong to.
Check out the policies, and the actions of each party, and see if it fits with who are are as a human being.

Well said.
Of course it doesn't.

As long as actions don't contradict beliefs.

The Labour Party was finished in my eyes when Thatcher came to power. And when that Grade One slime ball Tony Blair took the reins.

Besides my old skool local Labour Councillor who was a real good egg.

I haven't voted for Labour for over forty years.

The present Labour set up and government are an absolute joke. And Keir Starmer could not knock the skin off a rice pudding.

Deep down l do hold onto Labour Socialist principles and values
.
These are now long gone. Which l find to be really heartbreaking.

Does it really matter which 'class' you believe yourself to belong to.
Check out the policies, and the actions of each party, and see if it fits with who are are as a human being.

Anniebach

Quote Primrose53 Mon 08-Sept-25 16:19:10

admired Alan Johnson very much too. He and the late John Smith were Labour through and through as you say. Nobody to match either of them in recent years.

John Smith, QC, son of a headmaster,

So what? To your last sentence.

Donkey?

It's a very hard job.

Let’s face it, most of the Labour Party aren’t “working class”, not like, ‘roll your sleeves up’ type of work.
AR started as a carer & worked her way up- now in my opinion, that’s is donkey work.

The labour party with a lord at the helm. My mother would turn in her urn!!! No one is in it for the people these days, politicians are in it for themselves. I had to have new specs a month ago, cost just over £300. If I didnt have an extra work based pension thats a 1/3rd of my gov pension gone. Oh and because I have a small WBP I get taxed. The system is broken, we need someone with "balks" to say no to more people draining the system who have put nothing in and no to people entering the country unless they have a skill we need. We need to get tough.

Plunger

Can someone please define a 'working class person' or even a 'worker'? You would think doctors don't work, bankers don't work and for that matter, MPs don't work. Round here plumbers, painter and decorators, roofers etc all earn as much if not more than many doctors.Does the term working class have any real meaning now? Personally I doubt it.

Whilst I absolutely agree with what you are saying, Plunger, I also think that your post is an example of what I said upthread and for which I was castigated and called 'out of date'.

Plumbers, decorators etc have been separated from doctors and the fact that they (the old 'working class') earn as much as someone in an traditionally high-status occupation is used as a way of showing that class as we knew it is dead. If that were the case, why are plumbers et al the example given? Why is it of note that they earn a decent salary?

IMO, we are on the cusp of a huge shake up of occupational status. Many jobs that used to be highly skilled will become routine with the encroachment of AI, and it will be those with artisanal skill that will command the higher salaries, as their work will be harder for computers to replicate. It will be interesting to see whether plumbers, electricians and decorators will be awarded the status of, say, accountants and lawyers, and whether they, like Victorian clerks, will be socially 'downgraded' as their salaries fall.

Maybe society will become more egalitarian overall, with less snobbery and division. Or maybe not.

Time was when MPs had come into politics through experience in local poilitics or rtrade union roles. Unfortunately, nowadays it's more likely that MPs are career politicians with little or no experience of the ordinary world of work.

Maremia

John Smith, the best Prime Minister we never had.

I agree, Maremia!

MaizieD

Oh, come on, growstuff. Reform does have the lovely Darren Grimes, not a degree in sight and let off cheating over his funding for his Brexit campaign because he was too dim to fill in the form properly..
Now vice chair of my local council 😱

Was that tongue-in-cheek?
I assume not as you say News and Politics is no place for such comments.

So, why exactly do you find Darren Grimes lovely?
Does it matter if he has no degree?

Seriously, you only have to look at him and realise there is no such thing as meritocracy in the UK.

Oh - growstuff realised it wasn't serious! So it was obviously written in jest.

Such fun! If it wasn't so confusing about who is allowed to write what.

John Smith, the best Prime Minister we never had.

Quote Primrose53 Mon 08-Sept-25 16:19:10

admired Alan Johnson very much too. He and the late John Smith were Labour through and through as you say. Nobody to match either of them in recent years.

John Smith, QC, son of a headmaster,

Listening to Radio 4 this morning, one would have thought that The Labour Party should be renamed as The Unions’ Party.

I note that the ‘workers’ are holding London to ransom again by calling a Tube Strike.

‘The average Tube driver's salary is approximately £65,179, according to April 2024 figures from a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London (TfL). For comparison, TfL provided a fixed salary of £63,901 for train operators in late 2023, with instructor operators earning £66,649, and these amounts may not include overtime and other compensation.’

The irony here is that is absolutely no need for anyone to drive a Tube train. There are now driverless metro trains in countries as far a field as China; UAE and Canada.

To get back on topic, if any politician uses their upbringing and social background to enhance their credentials with the electorate, and to defend themselves over their Ministerial conduct, they run the risk of this being used against them should they fall foul of the rules.

J52

It was tongue-in-cheek J52
🙄
(Shakes head in despair)

Didn’t sound it Allira. Hope your heads ok, with all that shaking.

Et tu Brute?

Actually, my posts were in answer to some rather tongue-in -cheek questions and similar posts.

That is how they appeared to be, anyway.

albertina

I heard Alan Johnson speaking at Dartington Hall some years ago. Such good sense. A Labour man through and through.

I have voted Labour all my life, but hadn't ever joined the party. I was so convinced that Keir Starmer would lead the party with wisdom and care, I joined.

After they went for the elderly and the disabled in their attempt to rake in some £, I left in disgust. The Labour Party has made efforts to get me to rejoin ( me and a lot of other disappointed people, I suspect) but I never will.

Time for Starmer to go for the FAT CATS, not struggling elderly folk and the disabled and sick. Long overdue.

Same here Albertina. I voted Labour for much of my adult life as it was the way my Dad voted and it was the norm for our neighbourhood. Never would again.

I admired Alan Johnson very much too. He and the late John Smith were Labour through and through as you say. Nobody to match either of them in recent years.

As I said up thread I really dislike the use of the words working class, it is like the use of that awful word “posh”, is it derogatory or complimentary, what does it even mean?

So I decided to do some research as to what constitutes being working class.
You.Gov have done a poll and here are the results, it makes interesting reading.

yougov.co.uk/society/articles/51105-how-do-britons-define-social-class