ID cards at long last

Galaxy

What kind of constructive discussion do you hope to have by labelling people on the other side of debate as tin hat brigade.

The poster clearly doesn’t want a discussion. It’s the beginning of the end of so many freedoms. Not least, it will make it easier to persuade people they don’t need cash. Before you know it, your shopping will be fully monitored. We all have NHS numbers already.

Arto1s

ID cards are so necessary. My sister doesn’t drive, so no driving license. Her Passport expired years ago. This is exactly why ID cards are useful.

I would have thought even an expired passport could be used as sufficient proof for these purposes. I know my own is out of date - but I keep it because the photo is still recognisably me (just about - given a noticeable number of people "don't look like themselves" any longer so to say as they get older). But I would think most of us are still recognisable as the photo for some time afterwards.

I have a passport, a bus pass, and a drivers licence, all have my ID on them my passport is my ID if I go to another country for a holiday. A card would be a lot easier. So I am all for it.

My first instinct was why not. Now I’m totally unsure. The cost to the country seems to be astronomical. As the news settles I’m thinking, well I have no need to apply for work so it won’t affect me. Or not at first. Then of course it’s likely to be extended. Maybe not in my lifetime, who knows. It would of course immediately impact our younger family members.

We have several friends and neighbours who have never used a computer or possessed a smart phone. At their ages they have no desire to begin now, the learning curve would simply be too much while struggling with chronic pain, sight loss, memory loss, reduced manual dexterity and high anxiety. They’d cope with a card.

Then I think why do it rather than why not. The potential for cyber crime is real, any employer should record a national insurance number for anyone they employ. If they don’t now why would they check any sort of identity card.

I’ve currently settled in the yes if there’s a physical card option, like my driving licence. Instinctively I’d not want one on my phone. Why? I’m not sure, it’s just a pretty loud voice. Maybe I’ll come around to the idea. There’s time after all.

Coming back to this, a point I raised yesterday, as to migrants who have no papers, how would they access benefits etc. and Growstuff stated "well they can't that's the whole point" I didn't ask you to elucidate, on that GS if you come back. Do you mean they would be eligible for immediate deportation? No one could be sure if an individual has destroyed their papers themselves, a third party had done that to them under duress, or they simply had to leave, for whatever reason without any. So deportation wouldn't really be fair for the asylum seeker who desperately needs a safe haven.

All I know, following a phone call with son number 2 yesterday, he's spitting feathers his rationale is "fgs! I produced birth certificate, passport and National Insurance Card when I commenced work with employers, I don't need a *** ID card I don't trust this government or any other not to use it in some pervasive way" and of those who say, "look France and Germany have them", well imo we are all at a crossroads in many ways, not least of all with dissatisfaction with the political class and none of us know really what is coming down the line in the future, it could be seismic. Why can't asylum seekers, once approved be issued with a National Insurance Card instead of pissing off a multitude of British Nationals by mandating an Identity Card. At the back of my mind I can't help thinking this is some sort of Keir Starmer deflection, his ratings have gone through the floor and the Labour Party Conference is imminent.

I doubt if ID cards would have saved the two people who drowned overnight trying to cross the channel to seek asylum.

I really am flip-flopping on the ID issue.

On one hand it could make things a lot easier, in an ever increasing paperless society.

On the other it depends on what the government of the day does with the information.

Like I posted up thread, anyone with a shop loyalty card, who walks around in a facial recognition camera zone, who drives in a number plate monitoring area.

Banks inform HMRC on how much interest we may or may not earn on our money, we have to prove who we are and what we are intending to use our own money for if we withdraw over a certain amount.

I wish I could make up my mind 🤷‍♀️

TerriBull

I still don't see how ID cards would stop people circumventing the black economy, unless the government were to make us a cashless society, which again would go down like a bucket of sick. They know what bloody Deliveroo and other exploitative outfits are up to, they should raid them to the point of extinction imo.

I agree!

I still don't see how ID cards would stop people circumventing the black economy, unless the government were to make us a cashless society, which again would go down like a bucket of sick. They know what bloody Deliveroo and other exploitative outfits are up to, they should raid them to the point of extinction imo.

Thinking about it, I don’t think you need to worry because they won’t get round to it . All mouth and no trousers.

growstuff

nanna8

What’s with the digital? Why not a proper one ? Tell me all the homeless people and old and sick people have phones. Typical middle class apology for a Labour Party.

I suspect most old and sick people do have smartphones. It's patronising to think they don't.

I know a lot who don’t- most in fact. You must be more advanced or richer in the UK. Homeless people, on the whole, don’t either. That is discrimination.

growstuff

Galaxy

I read it but none of it seemed to be anything that couldn't be achieved with the curren firms of ID, the issues described, are all things I currently achieve with no ID card.

You're right. There are some agencies who have legitimate access to your NI number and various other data can be retrieved within minutes.

I don't see that people's privacy will be affected - that horse has already bolted. The question is whether there will be benefits - and what will they be exactly?

Would there not be a negative impact on the black economy?

Blimey this thread has a life if it’s own and has entirely disappeared down the rabbit hole.

The ID card is answering a problem that as far as I can see doesn’t exist. The law if upheld properly covers exactly what this superfluous bit of nonsense does.

Those of us as retirees and who will never work, don’t need one, neither does anyone who does not work for whatever reason.

It is merely postering to Farage and the anti-immigration contingent.

nanna8

What’s with the digital? Why not a proper one ? Tell me all the homeless people and old and sick people have phones. Typical middle class apology for a Labour Party.

I posted before, 96% of people in the UK have smart phones, I don’t believe being ill precludes you from having one either?

I have signed a petition (started by Liberty) against the ID proposal. I voted Remain.

Galaxy

I read it but none of it seemed to be anything that couldn't be achieved with the curren firms of ID, the issues described, are all things I currently achieve with no ID card.

You're right. There are some agencies who have legitimate access to your NI number and various other data can be retrieved within minutes.

I don't see that people's privacy will be affected - that horse has already bolted. The question is whether there will be benefits - and what will they be exactly?

SheepyIzzy

Smileless2012

I'm 64 REKA, don't have a smart 'phone and don't want one.
Happy to carry an actual card though.

Same here regarding actual card! I'm 51 and a physical card, yes, but not digital that links to everything, too many hacks! I had to upgrade to UC last year from IS, they needed proof I was who I said I was. I didn't know I could have taken a 2019 expired passport (was renewed in 2009, but never used, only my 2nd passport, my 1st was used 1999 and 2003, that's it! I lived in hope of another holiday, alas, was not to be!) My driving licence is an original paper, don't want to change it!

So, I handed over my gun licence! "Never had one of those before" she said. I told her if good enough for the police, it's good enough for you.

Mum doesn't drive anymore, but does have her bus pass for ID and her blue badge for when we're out.

I know alot say yes to ID, I agree with a physical card that has my mugshot on it, but NOT digital. Too many big companies being attacked and the way the government want EVERYTHING on this one ID, no way.

Don't put all the eggs in one basket!

I hate to tell you this, but a physical card can be easily cloned.

I am in favour of this. Very much so,

I read it but none of it seemed to be anything that couldn't be achieved with the curren firms of ID, the issues described, are all things I currently achieve with no ID card.

MaizieD

If it’s inconsequential then it isn’t worth the expense of setting it up and maintaining it. Or the danger of it being misused.

Did you read the Guardian article? Surely there are things to learn from so many other European countries.
Or is this just British exceptionalism?

Smileless2012

I'm 64 REKA, don't have a smart 'phone and don't want one.
Happy to carry an actual card though.

Same here regarding actual card! I'm 51 and a physical card, yes, but not digital that links to everything, too many hacks! I had to upgrade to UC last year from IS, they needed proof I was who I said I was. I didn't know I could have taken a 2019 expired passport (was renewed in 2009, but never used, only my 2nd passport, my 1st was used 1999 and 2003, that's it! I lived in hope of another holiday, alas, was not to be!) My driving licence is an original paper, don't want to change it!

So, I handed over my gun licence! "Never had one of those before" she said. I told her if good enough for the police, it's good enough for you.

Mum doesn't drive anymore, but does have her bus pass for ID and her blue badge for when we're out.

I know alot say yes to ID, I agree with a physical card that has my mugshot on it, but NOT digital. Too many big companies being attacked and the way the government want EVERYTHING on this one ID, no way.

Don't put all the eggs in one basket!

PaynesGrey

This is an interesting historical paper from academic Jon Agar. I can’t see a date on it it but his reference to New Labour has proposed identity cards first as tools for combating underage drinking, then, as a tool against identity theft, illegal working and benefit fraud (the 'entitlement card'), and, more recently, as a tool against terrorism. effectively dates it.

historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/identity-cards-in-britain-past-experience-and-policy-implications/

How does what he write there chime with this latest announcement?

Some thoughts.

Reform’s Zia Yusuf repeated describes small boat migrants as “men of fighting age” as if men from disparate countries are forming an insurgent army.

At the recent protest rally organised by Yaxley Lennon, Musk urged people to fight back or die.

Therefore it seems pertinent that British identity card systems have been introduced twice before, between 1915-1919 and 1939-1952.

Agar writes:

The first National Registration was taken during the First World War. The context was a fierce debate raging in the War Cabinet between those ministers willing to consider conscription and those who wanted to continue the policy of voluntarism. The argument turned on knowing the number of men within the population available to fight, and existing statistics were judged to be insufficiently accurate.

On the 29th September 1939, the second National Register was introduced for three specified purposes 'for the duration of the present emergency': co-ordinating national service, national security and the administration of rationing.

One lesson to be drawn from historical experience is that universal registers of personal information are held to be solutions to moral panics, but in operation they are very rarely as effective as their proponents hope.

It seems to me that Starmer has introduced this now in response to the moral panic (from some quarters) over migration.

Agar goes on:

The 1939 Act provided for three administrative applications of the personal data held in the registers (national service, national security and food rationing), but eleven years later thirty-nine government agencies made use of the records. Some of these uses were noted in the last section. Others involved the opening of Post Office Savings Bank accounts, collecting parcels, checking pension claims and routine police inquiries. Theoretically, exceptional disclosure was confined to communication of information relating to serious crime or national security. In practice, requests from government departments and state agencies relating to less serious matters were often granted. Disclosure was powerfully shaped by the culture of discretion that marks the British civil service, and was, of course, entirely free of constraint by data protection laws.

In general, the second identity card system illustrates the phenomenon of 'function creep', where seemingly insignificant further uses are incrementally added until, eventually, the pattern of disclosure and use of personal information is markedly different from that originally declared. Once a universal register was in place, there was a seemingly compelling bureaucratic case for using the information.

The USA keeps a record of party affiliation. Could we end up with that here?

… a technologically-sophisticated card is more likely to be accepted on trust than a very simple card. But since the unfakeable card is unlikely ever to exist, this very trust is problematic: the people and organisations with the means and will to corrupt a … card are precisely the people and organisations it would be most dangerous to trust.

In weighing up the pros and cons of the National Register, the (unnamed) civil servant considered what he or she called the 'totalitarian” argument': 'while it is true that if this country went communist or fascist the National Register would prove a very handy means of finding any individual whom the authorities did not like …

With Reform wanting to deport people with ILTR (who next?), this would be putting a finding tool into their hands. Despite Farage’s claims to be against ID cards (and who can believe what he says from one day to the next?) over half of Reform voters from 2024 are in favour and several well-known Reform names on SM are voicing their support for a scheme.

I would say no to ID cards in case we end up with a fascist government.

Referendum but this time with a wide margin of majority.

Hmmm....the timing of when they were previously introduced - ie at the start of a major war....that will have me thinking on wondering.

Given that right now - it would appear that America has called back all their high-level military bods from across the world (Admirals and Generals) for an "in person" (ie harder to snoop on) meeting in America.

That being their Secretary of War - Pete Hegseth is the one that has called them all back. A disturbing thought and I've seen two speculative reasons as to why they've summonsed them.

1. Being ready to start World War 3 - against Putin.
2. In case 3I/Atlas that is steadily making its way to Earth and looking less and less like a comet and more and more like ET paying us a visit (own personal take on that one being it probably is ET and they're keeping a very close eye currently on this planet with its primitive, warlike people). ET's must feel like they're watching an episode of EastEnders and wondering how on earth (pun...) such a high proportion of people living on Earth are still so primitive. Logical thought does not predominate on Earth.

Hmm......but Britain looking like it might introduce these cards again does make one wonder whether Trump has "tipped the wink" to Starmer's minder that "Better get those cards in place buddy - I'm about to start up another World War". Hence a reason for not having mentioned it (as they should have!) in their manifesto - ie because America wasnt doing that at the time we had our last Election.

I wonder......

MaizieD

^I would say no to ID cards in case we end up with a fascist government.^

Excellent reason, PaynesGrey

Wasted on Gnetters, though because most of them cling firmly to the belief that fascism doesn’t exist in the UK and never will. 🤔

Once the current panic over immigrants has passed (as it will) what will be the purpose of ID? Apart from it being very convenient for government to have all the information they want on us at their fingertips? And all of it on a desperately unsafe platform.

Curiously, my impression is that those who would enable a fascist government (and I don't think it's that far away) are in many cases the same people who are most vociferously against ID cards.

karmalady

Control of the whole population by stealth

Black belt barrister, is worth watching. I have completely changed my mind and signed a petition against digital ID

Black belt barrister is an expert in data protection

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC7PrWKWrNU

I'm subscribed to him as well - jaw dropping at the way he forensically analyses things bit by bit.....

But of course, that is maybe a danger in this modern world - that we all become too ready to part with personal details because we seem to do it on a regular basis.

I think I meant inconsequential to me personally, in that it would warrant little attention from me if I'd already been through EES requirements.