What is the gulf between what the current party leaders believe themelves to be and the reality in your view?

Oreo

Well he has been called Captain Hindsight Allira and flip flop.

If I may answer about Zack Polanski as he’s now called, I think he’s trying hard to appeal to a young demographic especially with wanting to legalise all drugs including heroin and crack.

Yes, that's him, I hear the name and keep thinking he's some pop star I don't know.

What? 😲

Not to mince my words, I think Polanski is a pillock.
Good choice of word Doodledog

The Greens have moved on a lot since the days of Caroline Lucas, all of it downhill.

Starmer believes he is a socialist.
I would beg to differ.

Not to mince my words, I think Polanski is a pillock.

His views on women's rights are appalling for a start.

In my work-based situation, he would be someone who is patronisingly scathing about older colleagues, uses buzz phrases a lot and makes a point of speaking at every meeting, nodding along with the people he sees as rising stars. He regularly reinvents wheels that were abandoned years before for being triangular or otherwise not fit for purpose.

Allira I do realise that a PM is supposed to do all the things I mentioned . I was simply offering the opinion that it is a lot to expect anyone (of any party) to do well.

Well he has been called Captain Hindsight Allira and flip flop.

If I may answer about Zack Polanski as he’s now called, I think he’s trying hard to appeal to a young demographic especially with wanting to legalise all drugs including heroin and crack.

Excuse typos! Sun is on the screen.

Ship and to steer

I think that asking one person to lead a party of elected representatives (representing very different constituencies) as well as steer a country (and in the UK a union of four countries) is a huge ask, and not very realistic, so the job description is fundamentally flawed.

Well, it is a tough job but every shop has to have a captain yo steer it safely. I'm not sure that Starmer is the right man for the job after all. It seemed as if he would be so much better than this, a steady hand at the helm but he has turned out to be a prevaricator and seems to have lost his bearings. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement but at least he's better than the alternative leader, although I do like Ed Davey.

LemonJam What is your take on the leader of the Greens who seems to think they stand a good chance at the next election?

sunami

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The Laffer curve, as proved by Gordon Brown. I think it was 2004, that he reached the limits of cigarette taxes, and they fell heavily the following year. So much so, that he never put their taxes up again.

This time round for labour is different. It's the first time they haven't inherited a good economy. This is why things are disastrous so quickly.

Mind you Reeves will improve things next month won’t she with her delayed Budget?

What makes you think that Labour inherited a good economy? All the indications were that they didn't and not many serious economists would agree with you. It would be interesting to hear how you would defend your claim.

I don’t think you read FGT post correctly.
No claim to defend.

Interesting thread.

I think that asking one person to lead a party of elected representatives (representing very different constituencies) as well as steer a country (and in the UK a union of four countries) is a huge ask, and not very realistic, so the job description is fundamentally flawed.

In most successful management teams there are those who inspire, those who enable, those who drive, come up with ideas, see those ideas through and so on. One person can't do all of that unless s/he has multiple personalities, which might rule them out of the running by definition.

Another problem is that most MPs and cabinet members are ambitious people who pretty much all have big egos, so will probably be waiting for the opportunity to get a better job, and most will also believe that their vision would benefit the rest of us. All of that works against more usual definitions of loyalty, so a leader has to watch his or her back as well as leading from the front. 24/7 rolling news and constant surveillance on SM males it all even worse.

WRT the current leaders, I agree with lemonjam's analysis. I have worked with people who have similar traits to all of them. To take them in turn:

The Badenoch characters get to the top then wonder why they don't have people rooting for them and willing to have their back in a crisis, as they have experience of the ruthlessness that has accompanied the rise to the top. This self-fulfils, as without loyal colleagues the need to run things single handed makes things worse. Nobody chips in for a leaving card when they move on.

The Starmer characters are great in a crisis, but a bit plodding on a day to day level, having been brought up without enough headroom to encourage risk-taking. They believe in process, which can slow things down and be frustrating for people with time-critical ideas, but when they sign off a policy it usually works. Colleagues get irritated by them, but miss them when they leave and they are stuck with one of the others.

Davey characters are fun in their youth, but less so as they age. They organise compulsory 'team building' events, and are fans of exposing ice-breakers that everyone hates. They forget that 'wacky' PR only works with particular demographics and are usually half a step behind what is actually 'cool'. Nice enough people, they are rarely good leaders as they care too much about being seen as 'decent', so won't sack dead weight or make unpopular decisions. Someone has to organise a bigger room for their retirement or leaving party, as they are popular with colleagues.

Farage types see themselves as natural leaders, and rely on confidence to ingratiate themselves with those of similar backgrounds and intimidate those who are not. They talk the talk, and can be very convincing, but often repeat what someone else has just said in meetings as though they had thought of it first, take credit for others' work and always have an alibi when bodies are found. They don't have leaving parties, as they rarely bother to work their notice, but just disappear to a better job, often amongst rumours of having jumped before they were pushed.

Galaxy

I actually agree with you completely and I feel that people don't understand how important safety and fairness in day to day life is to people, I thought for example the mocking of Jenrick ( re fare dodging) was a mistake. But I can disagree with her on that issue and agree on the others if you see what I mean.

Yes, I do see what you mean and it's good to have this discussion.

I actually agree with you completely and I feel that people don't understand how important safety and fairness in day to day life is to people, I thought for example the mocking of Jenrick ( re fare dodging) was a mistake. But I can disagree with her on that issue and agree on the others if you see what I mean.

Galaxy

That's lovely for them sunami they are both important issues for me. Her action on police numbers doesn't impact how I think about her views on those subjects and vice versa.

Fair enough! Thank you for answering. I just don't think they would be at the top of most people's wish lists.

Her action on police numbers might not impact you directly, but comparisons with what she says now about law and order show what a hypocrite she is. I think being able to walk about the streets safely and knowing that crimes will be followed up are issues which concern most people. She was also in a position to have raised concerns about the Met, which was already giving reasons for some alarm, but she didn't.

Then I will read the replies with interest😃

Oreo Sun 05-Oct-25 13:55:35
I think it’s hard for us to really know what Party leaders believe themselves to be isn’t it?

I agree with you Oreo to a large extent. But they each choose how they present themselves to the electorate e.g. in every interview and media appearance and we each form our views accordingly. Eg Farage down the pub with a pint in his hand shows he wants to be seen as a man of the people in my view. Badenoch this morning on TV said she's an engineer by background so she plans well and will only form policies that work because thats what engineers do.

The OP invitation was to share your views of how they see themselves by the way they present themselves to you- and your view of their real self as you have observed in their behaviours. As we are all different, with different political allegiances and values etc, views will differ widely of course.....thats what makes it interesting 😊

That's lovely for them sunami they are both important issues for me. Her action on police numbers doesn't impact how I think about her views on those subjects and vice versa.

NotSpaghetti

^Of all of them I think Starmer does try to be true to his own beliefs and principles which doesn’t of course necessarily make him a great leader.^

I think you are right, Oreo

But some leaders in the past have sent us all Half a league, half a league, Half a league onward whilst sitting safely on their gilded seats at least a dozen leagues away.

True, and we don’t want another Charge Of The Light Brigade do we ( or under Boris, The Charge Of The Heavy Brigade) but we do need a leader with very clear ideas and some boldness.

Erm sunami I actually said “ It's the first time they haven't inherited a good economy.”

Galaxy

I also quite liked some of the points she made around assisted dying.

Do you honestly think that those are election-winning issues for the vast majority of the electorate? I'm afraid I don't.

I don't think I've ever heard her say anything even remotely sensible about the economy or foreign affairs. When she was on the London Assembly, she supported cutting police numbers. I think people are more concerned about issues such as those.

Of all of them I think Starmer does try to be true to his own beliefs and principles which doesn’t of course necessarily make him a great leader.

I think you are right, Oreo

But some leaders in the past have sent us all Half a league, half a league, Half a league onward whilst sitting safely on their gilded seats at least a dozen leagues away.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The Laffer curve, as proved by Gordon Brown. I think it was 2004, that he reached the limits of cigarette taxes, and they fell heavily the following year. So much so, that he never put their taxes up again.

This time round for labour is different. It's the first time they haven't inherited a good economy. This is why things are disastrous so quickly.

Mind you Reeves will improve things next month won’t she with her delayed Budget?

What makes you think that Labour inherited a good economy? All the indications were that they didn't and not many serious economists would agree with you. It would be interesting to hear how you would defend your claim.

I think it’s hard for us to really know what Party leaders believe themselves to be isn’t it?
Of all of them I think Starmer does try to be true to his own beliefs and principles which doesn’t of course necessarily make him a great leader.

My thoughts on 4 leaders who gain most media coverage, in no particular order:

1) Badenoch- back story privileged, largely private school educated, engineer. Sees herself as bold, strong and good planner. Reality- often comes across as arrogant, argumentative, poor listener, not a natural networker. Plans missing until recently. Uninspiring.

2) Starmer- back story working class, state educated, Human Rights lawyer. Sees himself- knows what he stands for, values driven, incisive, decisive, determined, has a plan. Reality- cautious, often changes his mind, others don't always feel they know what he stands for, ruthless, ambitious, determined, makes unforced errors, politically naive, only recently starting to make his values clearer to the electorate. Doesn't see it as his primary role to inspire, rather he seeks to govern responsibly.

3 Ed Davey- I don't really know much about his back story apart from he has a disabled child. Sees himself as values driven, media savvy and wants attention for Liberal Party, good at building presence in local communities. Reality- embarrassing Dad stunts in media, values driven, good at building presence in local communities. Jury swings as to level of inspiration.

4) Nigel Farage- back story privileged, privately educated, finance in the city. Sees himself as a man of the people yet also casts himself as an outsider, a risk taker, a truth teller, anti woke, the change agent with all the answers to current economic and cultural malaise ( as he sees it ). Reality Media savvy/master class level, scapegoat expert, agitator, maverick, career opportunist, excellent networker, ruthless, ambitious, seeks personal financial gain alongside public service, truth bender, opportunistic, thin skinned ( he can dish it out but not take it in return) contrarian. Inspires constant attention- his primary goal.

On digging deeper …. Seriously this is called big news 🥱 So a person who last October donated all of £2,000 towards Badenoch leadership campaign, has now deflected to his best mate ... Nigel Farage ... Laughable stuff! 🤣.

As you were.

Kemi Badenoch's best riposte was when she said
'Starmer was a lawyer, not a Leader.'

I do think I agree with Dominic Cummings ( god help me) we are watching the end of the two main parties.

Latest:
A Tory donor who helped fund Kemi Badenoch’s leadership campaign has defected to Reform UK on the first day of the Conservatives’ annual conference.