A rather large bill......

It is a report from 2023, and it was a suggestion that the UK owes £18.8 trillion in reparation.

The report was rejected by Rishi Sunak.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66596790

Mollygo

KQ
I will repeat that there is no evidence that anyone (Lenny Henry) included is asking for £18 trillion in recompense.
The OP seemed to think this was the case, and others were swept up in the assumption that this was a serious consideration.

I think you seem to think it is the case too.

I think you seem to think . . . 🤣

This was in the BBC News

A UN judge says the UK is likely to owe more than £18tn in reparations for its historical role in slavery.
A report co-authored by the judge, Patrick Robinson, says the UK should pay $24tn (£18.8tn) for its slavery involvement in 14 countries.
But Mr Robinson said the sum was an "underestimation" of the damage caused by the slave trade.

Of course I understand that you might not consider either the BBC or the named judge to be a valid source of evidence.

I’m still interested to know your evidence for your accusations below.

Who are these people who have claimed that there is any justification for slavery, either in the past or in the present day?

Who has denied or said that they were unaware that it was for profit?

In terms of moral bankruptcy I agree that the slave trade was an example of that.

However,
*It is widely considered morally bankrupt to make people pay for something they have not done, as it violates fundamental principles of fairness, justice, and consent.*

Well said.

KQ
I will repeat that there is no evidence that anyone (Lenny Henry) included is asking for £18 trillion in recompense.
The OP seemed to think this was the case, and others were swept up in the assumption that this was a serious consideration.

I think you seem to think it is the case too.

I think you seem to think . . . 🤣

This was in the BBC News

A UN judge says the UK is likely to owe more than £18tn in reparations for its historical role in slavery.
A report co-authored by the judge, Patrick Robinson, says the UK should pay $24tn (£18.8tn) for its slavery involvement in 14 countries.
But Mr Robinson said the sum was an "underestimation" of the damage caused by the slave trade.

Of course I understand that you might not consider either the BBC or the named judge to be a valid source of evidence.

I’m still interested to know your evidence for your accusations below.

Who are these people who have claimed that there is any justification for slavery, either in the past or in the present day?

Who has denied or said that they were unaware that it was for profit?

In terms of moral bankruptcy I agree that the slave trade was an example of that.

However,
It is widely considered morally bankrupt to make people pay for something they have not done, as it violates fundamental principles of fairness, justice, and consent.

sunami

Allira

sunami

keepingquiet

sunami

keepingquiet You quoted my post. I hope you don't think it was dismissive and crass.

No, not at all. I was echoing your post but it was late and maybe some people had incensed me so much I was thinking straight.

Of course, many people have suffered oppression and hardship at the hands of the British government but this post was about the tri-angular slave trade so I was trying to stick to that issue instead of dragging in other examples as many were doing.

Never mind, this forum seems to be more about having a good moan than trying to see issues objectively... which is a shame because the posts which are really saying something often get drowned out.

Thankyou for your recent balanced post above.

You're welcome. I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems the extremes (whether or not they're true) make better headlines. Balanced, nuanced discussion is rare.

Perhaps a site where more intelligent discussion takes place might suit?

This is a chat forum, after all.

GN isn't the only discussion group in which I participate.

It does, however, have one little corner called "News and Politics". Unfortunately, most threads do seem to degenerate into point-scoring and deflection.

I didn't 'seem to think this was the case' - the material in my post was not plucked from thin air, it has been widely reported. I haven't seen anyone elsed doubting what was said, as they too have read it presumably. How odd that so many, apart from yourself, appear to be aware of the same news item.

Mollygo

KQ
Anyone who can't see the total moral bankruptcy of this situation must be made aware that there can be no justification for what took place in the name of profit, and the impact that had on the everyday lives of ordinary people in this country ever since...

What a strange post.

Who are these people who have claimed that there is any justification for slavery, either in the past or in the present day?

Who has denied or said that they were unaware that it was for profit?

What exactly do you mean by the total moral bankruptcy of this situation?

Reparation in terms of wholehearted apology, certainly. The government can do that on behalf of those who were involved.

Education about the wrongs of the slave trade (and including a link to the current trading) and it’s continuing impact is important.

IS asking people who are not, or whose ancestors were not involved, to be contribute directly or indirectly to monetary reparation a morally right thing to do?

Where are you saying that that the money would come from if the government paid the 13 trillion mentioned?

Since the government hasn’t the money to house or feed or arrange medical and dental treatment for the population today, woukd it mean that ordinary people would suffer even more for something they haven’t done and which wasn’t their fault.

^Yes, it is widely considered morally bankrupt to make people pay for something they have not done, as it violates fundamental principles of fairness, justice, and consent.^

I think it was the comparison between the tri-angular trade and other kinds of slavery.

I will repeat that there is no evidence that anyone (Lenny Henry) included is asking for £18 trillion in recompense.

The OP seemed to think this was the case, and others were swept up in the assumption that this was a serious consideration. I think you seem to think it is the case too.

Allira

sunami

keepingquiet

sunami

keepingquiet You quoted my post. I hope you don't think it was dismissive and crass.

No, not at all. I was echoing your post but it was late and maybe some people had incensed me so much I was thinking straight.

Of course, many people have suffered oppression and hardship at the hands of the British government but this post was about the tri-angular slave trade so I was trying to stick to that issue instead of dragging in other examples as many were doing.

Never mind, this forum seems to be more about having a good moan than trying to see issues objectively... which is a shame because the posts which are really saying something often get drowned out.

Thankyou for your recent balanced post above.

You're welcome. I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems the extremes (whether or not they're true) make better headlines. Balanced, nuanced discussion is rare.

Perhaps a site where more intelligent discussion takes place might suit?

This is a chat forum, after all.

GN isn't the only discussion group in which I participate.

It does, however, have one little corner called "News and Politics". Unfortunately, most threads do seem to degenerate into point-scoring and deflection.

KQ
Anyone who can't see the total moral bankruptcy of this situation must be made aware that there can be no justification for what took place in the name of profit, and the impact that had on the everyday lives of ordinary people in this country ever since...

What a strange post.

Who are these people who have claimed that there is any justification for slavery, either in the past or in the present day?

Who has denied or said that they were unaware that it was for profit?

What exactly do you mean by the total moral bankruptcy of this situation?

Reparation in terms of wholehearted apology, certainly. The government can do that on behalf of those who were involved.

Education about the wrongs of the slave trade (and including a link to the current trading) and it’s continuing impact is important.

IS asking people who are not, or whose ancestors were not involved, to be contribute directly or indirectly to monetary reparation a morally right thing to do?

Where are you saying that that the money would come from if the government paid the 13 trillion mentioned?

Since the government hasn’t the money to house or feed or arrange medical and dental treatment for the population today, woukd it mean that ordinary people would suffer even more for something they haven’t done and which wasn’t their fault.

Yes, it is widely considered morally bankrupt to make people pay for something they have not done, as it violates fundamental principles of fairness, justice, and consent.

keepingquiet

If I could find one... it seems most 'chat' or other sorts of forum (what other sorts are there?) seem to descend into petty point scoring after a while.

Also my definition of chat must be different to yours...

If posters on Granset are incensing you that much, as you say, that is worrying.

🤔

Well, we are allowed to debate the hot topics of the day of course, but that means not everyone agrees, which is the whole point of debate.

If I could find one... it seems most 'chat' or other sorts of forum (what other sorts are there?) seem to descend into petty point scoring after a while.

Also my definition of chat must be different to yours...

sunami

keepingquiet

sunami

keepingquiet You quoted my post. I hope you don't think it was dismissive and crass.

No, not at all. I was echoing your post but it was late and maybe some people had incensed me so much I was thinking straight.

Of course, many people have suffered oppression and hardship at the hands of the British government but this post was about the tri-angular slave trade so I was trying to stick to that issue instead of dragging in other examples as many were doing.

Never mind, this forum seems to be more about having a good moan than trying to see issues objectively... which is a shame because the posts which are really saying something often get drowned out.

Thankyou for your recent balanced post above.

You're welcome. I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems the extremes (whether or not they're true) make better headlines. Balanced, nuanced discussion is rare.

Perhaps a site where more intelligent discussion takes place might suit?

This is a chat forum, after all.

keepingquiet

sunami

keepingquiet You quoted my post. I hope you don't think it was dismissive and crass.

No, not at all. I was echoing your post but it was late and maybe some people had incensed me so much I was thinking straight.

Of course, many people have suffered oppression and hardship at the hands of the British government but this post was about the tri-angular slave trade so I was trying to stick to that issue instead of dragging in other examples as many were doing.

Never mind, this forum seems to be more about having a good moan than trying to see issues objectively... which is a shame because the posts which are really saying something often get drowned out.

Thankyou for your recent balanced post above.

You're welcome. I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems the extremes (whether or not they're true) make better headlines. Balanced, nuanced discussion is rare.

Mollygo

That’s a valid concern, Allira.
It was suggested at our coffee morning, by one of the people mentioned in your second paragraph, that it’s because that is easier for the government to do than stopping the boats.

Some people married, have children here, have worked here for many years and are now frightened they will be deported.

We know of people who were to come over for a holiday and to visit family but had to cancel because the rules were introduced in such a rush.

That’s a valid concern, Allira.
It was suggested at our coffee morning, by one of the people mentioned in your second paragraph, that it’s because that is easier for the government to do than stopping the boats.

I am concerned about the fact that some new rules are being introduced in a rush to try to show that the Government is tackling illegal immigration.

The rules in fact target a few people who have been here for years but, for whatever reason, have failed to regularise their immigration status, perhaps through wrong advice or wrong assumptions. It also penalised a very few who were planning to visit family here from the Caribbean as the new rules were rushed in without notice.

petra

CariadAgain
Does the fact that your neighbour is Eastern European have any bearing on a fact that a woman was shouting at a council workman in Welsh.
If the woman had been shouting ( in Welsh) at your Eastern European I could understand the relevance.
Why did you feel the need to point out he is Eastern European?

I got lost somewhere .......

Luckygirl3

If we start paying out reparation for every past wrong, the amount of money that should be paid to women would be astronomical.

Exactly - and the oppression of women might be better than it was but it’s still with us.

Luckygirl3

If we start paying out reparation for every past wrong, the amount of money that should be paid to women would be astronomical.

Very true. All those lost careers. All that healthcare standard being worse than a man would have had. All that lost spare time - because Him Indoors refused/a lot of them are still refusing to do their fair 50% share of the housework that is the case if both have got full-time jobs.

Very true indeed.

If we start paying out reparation for every past wrong, the amount of money that should be paid to women would be astronomical.

I sometimes think the whole concept of reparation with money is ridiculous.

Of course we know that the Windrush generation was badly served and mistreated and deplore that, but we cannot turn the clock back.

What we can do it to work for equal opportunities and integration and I think that is very much happening. Not perfect of course, but very little is.

CariadAgain
Does the fact that your neighbour is Eastern European have any bearing on a fact that a woman was shouting at a council workman in Welsh.
If the woman had been shouting ( in Welsh) at your Eastern European I could understand the relevance.
Why did you feel the need to point out he is Eastern European?

sunami

keepingquiet You quoted my post. I hope you don't think it was dismissive and crass.

No, not at all. I was echoing your post but it was late and maybe some people had incensed me so much I was thinking straight.

Of course, many people have suffered oppression and hardship at the hands of the British government but this post was about the tri-angular slave trade so I was trying to stick to that issue instead of dragging in other examples as many were doing.

Never mind, this forum seems to be more about having a good moan than trying to see issues objectively... which is a shame because the posts which are really saying something often get drowned out.

Thankyou for your recent balanced post above.

Most people are sorry slavery took place. (Apart from those practising the current enslavement.)
That was why the UK went to such lengths to stop the slave trade.
They were sorry and did something about it.
The review makes what they are saying clearer, but how long would they like the reparation to continue?

Expecting people who were never involved in slavery so long ago, simply creates more resentment or ill feeling.
Even if their remote ancestors profited from the practice, expecting descendants or governments who had no say in what went on back then, to do more than express regret that it happened is unreasonable.

Do they (LH et al) propose to start similar movements e.g. in Ghana, where evidence remains that native slaves were traded among people of the same race?

Racism linked to slavery makes sense,
But expecting people to be endlessly saying sorry, or to pay for something they had no part in wouldn’t change racism.

M0nica

Lets all join in. What about us (half) Irish? We have been exploited by the English since Norman times.. Come to that the Normans are responsible for the subjection of women. Women's position in Anglo- Saxon society was almost equal to that of men. Let all us women demand compensation from the French. Let us all go round on a merry-go-riund etc etc.

Yep...I was already thinking one can witness discrimination without trying too hard any day of the week in some parts of Britain - by people who are very obviously British against other people who are very obviously British.

I was only talking yesterday to an Eastern European neighbour of mine about someone we both know vaguely - and I was retailing off to him that I caught her going up to a Council workman one time and speaking at him (yep her words were being spat at him by her) in Welsh (this is West Wales here) and he said "I'm sorry I don't speak Welsh" to her and she proceeded to spit some more words in it at him and still looking angry for no reason I could see. At which point I flew at her and told her very firmly "He's told you he doesnt speak Welsh. He's even apologised for not doing so. Now leave him alone!!!!" before she stalked off and stopped bothering him. Cue for I'd managed to stop her harassing him - she was obviously hoping he'd verbally defend himself and she could put in a complaint against him and hope to lose his job for him - so someone else she approved of more could have it. He duly thanked me for safeguarding his job for him.

Yep....merry-go-round indeed - and some people would harass others for coming from literally the next street over to them.

Thanks for posting from the review sunami. It reflects the interview I heard with Henry and Ryder, referred to in a previous post.

Trying to dismiss the lasting impact of the slave trade tends to confirm casual, inbuilt racism. Their explanation that much of racism today can be traced back to the economical and psychological consequences of the slave trade. The impact of that can be seen in educational under achievement, increased involvement in falling foul of the CJS, higher rates of mental health issues.

It’s still not unusual to see these difficulties as just part of being black, a cultural thing, with little reflection on history.