Breaking Peace in the Middle East? Continued thread.

Goodness only know Aga. From what I can see - there is no baseline beneath which land theft stops. Trespass, theft, fires, telling a pack of lies about the land-owner, attempted restrictions on movement, bullying = it's all there in the "How to steal someone else's land" manual (a virtual manual - but these are all land theft tactics).

So much so that I am now wondering if there's actually a how-to manual for sale.....off to check out Amazon...

Whitewavemark2

So Israel has joined the gutter with other torturers in the region, alongside Egypt Iran, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and others.

Dozens of mutilated Palestinian bodies have been returned to Gaza

The military base Sde Teiman is where the horror is carried out.

That is sickening. How low do they have to go for support for them to stop.

One almost wonders just why all these mutilated Palestinian bodies (some dead, some alive and barely managing to stumble out the door) are being released if it's not for the purpose of really "rubbing the noses" of Palestinians in it. The IDF et al just seem to be demonstrating "Say one word against us stealing your country bit by bit....do one thing against us - and look at what we'll do to you personally".

I do wonder if that's what they are up to - ie a very visible threat of what will happen to Palestinians if they protest against the restrictions and the inch by inch theft of their country.

Land thieves operate much the same way - whatever level they're coming from - whether it's down at the micro level of stealing someone's garden or the macro level of stealing the whole of someone's country. They start with badmouthing/telling barefaced lies about the rightful owner/trying to confidently assert that the land they know is NOT theirs really is and then work up from there .....to violence, theft, constantly nagging at the rightful land owner/s.

Right now that mythical "yellow line" going across Gaza is another little "nip at the Palestinians country" and an excuse to kill/maim some more of them - ie "Oooh look....you crossed that mythical yellow line by walking down street X instead of street Y" and yet I don't suppose there's even any markers of where the IDF are deeming the "yellow line" to be sited and they probably don't even know themselves and it's just where some individual IDF hothead decides he personally wants it to be.....

So Israel has joined the gutter with other torturers in the region, alongside Egypt Iran, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and others.

Dozens of mutilated Palestinian bodies have been returned to Gaza

The military base Sde Teiman is where the horror is carried out.

If they keep getting in the aid, and ordinary people make progress, and the world keeps watching.

I'm inclined to think there are almost always breaches of a cease fire for a variety of reasons (and hot rhetoric on both sides when they happen) but the overall deals can survive.

Oreo

Magic? CariadAgain? Or were you a Catholic in a former life?
👀

That is actually my suspicion - ie Catholic in a former life. But nope - I got off the plane at that holiday (Corfu) and thought "I'm Home (subtext - I can drop that English reserve/formality for a week") - though I'd never been there before. I just had the feeling that had been a happy life as a housewife basically and just accepted it.

That was quite interesting - just walking in to explore those little Catholic churches and I knew what was what - though I'd never been taught. Cue one bemused boyfriend taking it that he had a personal tour guide.

I've had several experiences before of "knowing" stuff as familiar that certainly wasnt (in this life). There's an area in Northern England I went to and "knew" it and was promptly guiding that boyfriend around ("There's shops and a church up here.....there's a river down there etc"). Or an Arabic boyfriend that was with me and with his friends years back and I think they forgot I was English (and that's the only language I speak basically) and turned and addressed me in Arabic - only belatedly realising I don't speak it and asking me how I'd understood what he said and answered him back (in English). I knew "my love" "come on" and "thank you" - but that was all....

I'm fairly used to this sort of incident by now...and my English mother (she'd call herself - "Cornish - meaning a nation - not a county") went on holiday years back to Madeira. Yep...she was guiding my father around - because she knew her way round the island and she doesnt believe in reincarnation.

Thanks again for the suggestions
Just finished listening to The Rest is Politcs from 2 years ago, just after the Atrocity. The two broadcasters give a very balanced discussion. Issues raised from all sides, and then comparing the hopelessness of the situation, to the despair felt in Northern Ireland before the Good Friday Agreement, implying, just keep trying to find a way.
There is another podcast with more up to date discussion of Gaza. Will get a chance to listen to that, now that I have found how to do it.

Magic? CariadAgain? Or were you a Catholic in a former life?
👀

Maremia

And that is how different folk and different faiths can actually come together.

That's what I think Maremia - I say to people "You can be any religion you please or none - and that's up to you/I'm not bothered basically - unless you push it on other people or it's Black Magic" (which I do draw the line at and am not a happy bunny when I've spotted signs of it going on in the vicinity).

So the only times I've been concerned have been when I was in an evangelical Christian church way back and the man speaking said "Anyone can speak - as long as they're a man". Two minutes later everyone had witnessed me very publicly getting up and walking firmly out the door of the chapel - never to reappear and I would have still done so even if I'd been a man myself.
Back in my last city I was told how to recognise some signs of Black Magic - which would mysteriously have disappeared a couple of minutes after I'd seen them.

Apart from that - be what you please imo...and I only missed out on going to the Greek Orthodox service we'd been invited to as well in Birmingham because I took the precaution of looking up how long their services went on for - !!!!!! Think it was 8 hours or something....and even my curiosity wasn't enough to cover that....

So - yep....religious tolerance....

Must have been more than a little amusing to the boyfriend I was on holiday with when I took us both into Catholic churches for a look - and even more amusing when I found I knew exactly what everything was and busily told him (you don't learn that when you've been brought up by an Anglican and an agnostic - and I couldnt have told you how I knew it).

Will get time this evening to look up that Facebook group you mentioned.

And that is how different folk and different faiths can actually come together.

Didnt know about the "show my geneology" thing.

Many years back I was living in Birmingham and the place I was living/working in did get invites to attend services from other faiths. Cue for I decided to attend two. Went to a Sikh temple and had a lovely time actually...welcomed....sat beside the sister of the guy in charge as she explained what was what to me, enjoyed the music, stayed for the communal lunch and came out with a rather positive impression all round. We were obviously allowed to attend Jewish "service" - as we'd had the invite - so I went to that as well subsequently and came out wondering whether I'd actually been allowed to go (but reminding myself we'd had an invite for any of us that wanted to go) - so I was allowed in and watched the service. But have no idea what was what - as I don't recall anyone saying anything to me. But I was curious - and I'll go to anyone else's religious service and take part - Lutheran, pagan, you name it...and I've pretty much been to it.

Glad you posted that foxie48 so I don’t need to. A maternal Jewish line is what counts.
As for deciding that you’re Jewish as a choice… ( CariadAgain)
It doesn’t work like that.You can be Jewish and non religious as very many Jews are.

Posters have such lovely and varied stories.

CariadAgain The Haredi Jews were exempt from conscription until the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in June 2024 against it, so since July 2024 they have been conscripted. Haredi is basically Ultra Orthodox and not necessarily Israeli, eg there's a large number of Hasidic Jews in London who would also be classified as "Haredi".

"I struggle with the idea of someone being "born Jewish" - as, to me, one is whatever religion (or none) one decides on as an adult"
Well I guess that's true of most religions but not for Jews, which generally does not proselytize because in Judaism there is a belief that non Jews can also find their way to God and ultimate salvation but it is made difficult to convert to Judaism for those not born a Jew. My maternal grandmother was a non practising Jew married to a non Jew, I found this out when doing my family tree. So I guess I'm "officially" Jewish but I don't feel it, was bought up as a Methodist and am now agnostic but I think if I turned up at a synagogue and showed my geneology I would be welcomed as a Jewish woman (albeit one who knew very little about Judaism) and so would my daughters. I'm sure one of our Jewish members would be able to confirm this.

Whitewavemark2

It is also fascinating to understand those of the Jewish faith, who deny the existence of Israel.

There was footage of them in Tel Aviv and indeed in New York, burning Israeli flags.

They are those who are not conscripted into the IDF.

It's my understanding they can't conscript the Jews (ie the religious ones who've been there all along).

I struggle with the idea of someone being "born Jewish" - as, to me, one is whatever religion (or none) one decides on as an adult. But I know I've got a South African friend in my agegroup - but who has lived in Britain since teenage and only recently realised she describes herself as "Jewish". Boy - does she go hell for leather verbally blasting Netanyahu/his government etc. She hates them with a passion for the way they are acting and does what she can to support the Palestinians.

I have noted that no-one but no-one ever puts her in fear for being Jewish...it's just accepted that she regards herself as that....and I'd say it's because she argues long and loud against what they're doing - and that is why she's just as safe as the rest of us (with whatever faith - or lack thereof - we've got). She's not had one attack on her to my knowledge ever (physically/verbally or any other way) for being Jewish - and I'd say it's because she makes it quite plain she doesn't side with them and does side with the real owners of Palestine.

Hence why I wonder why some Jews say they feel unsafe - and I'd say that I'm wondering whether it's nothing to do with them being Jews per se - and could be because they're siding with Netanyahu et al. Or, at the least, not condemning him and working against him and suspect they'd be perfectly safe if they made their opposition to him plain.

Smileless2012

It's as wrong to assume that all Israeli's support the atrocities that have been and continue to be carried out in Gaza and on the West Bank, as it is to assume that all Palestinians support Hamas.

There are thousands and thousands of decent people living in Israel and Gaza and they deserve better government than they all have had in recent times they do indeed foxie.

Yes and without American support who are by dint of the way power resides in the Knesset supporting the far right, the violence we are witnessing in West Bank and the determination to rid Gaza of Palestinians would never thrive.

It's as wrong to assume that all Israeli's support the atrocities that have been and continue to be carried out in Gaza and on the West Bank, as it is to assume that all Palestinians support Hamas.

There are thousands and thousands of decent people living in Israel and Gaza and they deserve better government than they all have had in recent times they do indeed foxie.

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

It is also fascinating to understand those of the Jewish faith, who deny the existence of Israel.

There was footage of them in Tel Aviv and indeed in New York, burning Israeli flags.

They are those who are not conscripted into the IDF.

Religious extremism.

I don't think they would agree with you that they are extremists.

I think that’s something we can agree on foxie48

Israel is a rather divided society and the views of some of the settlers certainly don't represent many of the Jews living in Israel or those in the diaspora. Unfortunately, as it's been so frequently said on GN, Netanyahu depends on the support of politicians who represent the extreme views of some of the settlers. If you look at the last election results they got a small percentage of the vote but Netanyahu is allowing them to wield great power.
It's a similar picture in Gaza. Hamas does not have the support of every Gazan, they gained power in 2006 with less than half the votes but they make the decisions for everyone living in Gaza and control by force of arms, control of resources and access to services. The Hamas of 2023 is a rather different force than the Hamas of 2006, which represented itself as a party of change and renewal at a time when the Palestinians were being very badly governed by the PA. They have had nearly 20 years to rue that decision.
There are thousands and thousands of decent people living in Israel and Gaza and they deserve better government than they all have had in recent times.

GrannyGravy13

Hamas are enjoying their moment in time, and are not thinking about innocent civilians.

The peace plan is being show up for the holes in its structure.

At the very least a peace keeping force should be there now.

Both protagonists are out of control.

Whitewavemark2

It is also fascinating to understand those of the Jewish faith, who deny the existence of Israel.

There was footage of them in Tel Aviv and indeed in New York, burning Israeli flags.

They are those who are not conscripted into the IDF.

Religious extremism.

Hamas are enjoying their moment in time, and are not thinking about innocent civilians.