Grooming gangs in London

Reflecting on the emerging difficulties, is an Inquiry the best pathway to getting closure for the victims
or improving understanding of how the crimes come about,
or challenging current practices in the relevant services?

Galaxy - yes 30 years in residential care settings will have had yiu face to face with decisions those outside often believe are easy

Thankyou Iam64 that was so helpful.
I agree it is very difficult to talk about this issue, especially when you have professional expertise in the area. I have spent 30 years in children's services, and a large part of that was managing residential services. It is very difficult to talk about some of the attitudes I experienced back then, in terms of how girls in care were viewed, but also the helplessness of residential staff.

Like Lathyrus3, I have first hand experience if working with victims, survivors and perpetrators of child sexual abuse and exploitation. I’ve worked alongside police investigating network child sexual abuse and exploitation. I first had direct knowledge of organised child sexual exploitation by men of Pakistani Muslim heritage in 1998. This was throughout the entire force area of GMP, including of course, Rochdale which was featured in the documentary/drama Three Girls.

I try to avoid giving too much possibly identifying information, I’m also aware that putting the head above the parapet in this understandably highly charged, emotional subject means it might get shot off.

growstuff, you ask those of us with direct knowledge to explain the impact. There is a huge body of research into child sexual abuse, its long term impact and the ways some can be helped in their recovery. Victoria Guiffre is one example, the survivors supporting the process another.

We know something about sex offenders. We know some abuse victims perpetuate, others are determined not to, and live good lives.

I remain thankful to Keir Starmer and Nazir Afzal whose work at the CPS shifted the approach in the way the victims were seen, in the organised sexual abuse and exploitation by the group of men under discussion here.

The level of irritation, mixed emotions, anger, frustration and inability to listen and reflect demonstrated on this thread mirrors the processes involved in setting up this inquiry.

IMO we don’t need and shouldn’t go abroad for a chair. We have excellent individuals here. I’m very sorry Jim Gamble is no longer involved. I’ve seen no one disputing agencies, including police and social work let these children down hugely. Not every one involved behaved in the appalling ways we’ve referred to here.

Bit pointless as you don’t believe I have any relevant experience. You have made it clear that you think I am lying.

Discrediting seems to be your chosen modus operandi.

Lathyrus3

growstuff

Lathyrus I'm not continuing with this. I do actually have practical experience of dealing with child sexual abuse. In at least two cases, the abusers were given lengthy prison sentences and I was placed in a position to support the victims, who are now middle-aged women.

In both cases, there were no groups involved and the abusers pleaded guilty. Both victims reacted very differently to what happened to them. I can imagine that if 20 victims were put in a group and asked to decide what they wanted to happen, they would come up with 20 different solutions. The way to move on would involve compromise. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened here is that outsiders have picked up on the agendas and "sides" have become entrenched. That, incidentally, is exactly what happens in the Year 7 disagreements I referenced. Somebody needs to step in and put a stop to the disagreements and get everybody to move forward with a common aim. Unfortunately, victims are so damaged that it's difficult to see that. If you really did have practical face-to-face experience of dealing with groups of victims you'd know that.

If you don’t have any experience of dealing with gangs of sexual abusers then what you “imagine” would happen is t at all valid a d is only conjured up to support your own viewpoint of silly Year 7 girls who can’t be trusted to speak of their experiences because they are too “damaged” to know what is good for them.

Everything you post just seems more and more awful to me and makes it blindingly clear why the victims in this case believe there is no justice for them.

That's why I asked whether anybody posting here has hands on experience. It's obvious you don't. At least I'm honest enough to admit that my experience of CSE is very limited (but possibly more than most people's).

I do, however, have quite a bit of experience of getting 20 people together and trying to get them to agree to a common plan. I know how difficult it is and that a skilled chair/co-ordinator is needed, especially when some members have entrenched and/or misinformed views.

Lathyrus You seem to know everything about this (which presumably is why you feel you can be so critical of me), so I'll ask again how you would move forward, given that one group of survivors is at loggerheads with another. You're such an expert, I'm sure you know the answer.

Iam64

I’m increasingly convinced this inquiry needs to focus on its original remit, to investigate the abuse of children by organised groups of men who were of largely Muslim, Pakistani heritage. Some were related to each other, cousins and brothers. The involved young men/boys from their families,ies or communities. Their told was to become a boyfriend then introduce their victim to the group.

The way girls were sometimes prosecuted, like the drunk 11 and 12 year olds gg13 mentions, or the girl portrayed in the three girls drama. She became a S1 offender because the gang got her to introduce friends to them. This meant she wasn’t allowed to participate in the trial of her abusers. As a ‘sex offender’ her evidence would be rubbished. Just like Virgnis Guiffre

As well as this inquiry focussing on this particular form of organised sex offending, I’d hope links between this kind of offending outside the family and similsr within families or communities needs examining

Iam64
It’s heartening to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.
We have all given our two pence worth but I know that you have worked at the coal face as my retired friends who did the same work call it.

growstuff

Lathyrus I'm not continuing with this. I do actually have practical experience of dealing with child sexual abuse. In at least two cases, the abusers were given lengthy prison sentences and I was placed in a position to support the victims, who are now middle-aged women.

In both cases, there were no groups involved and the abusers pleaded guilty. Both victims reacted very differently to what happened to them. I can imagine that if 20 victims were put in a group and asked to decide what they wanted to happen, they would come up with 20 different solutions. The way to move on would involve compromise. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened here is that outsiders have picked up on the agendas and "sides" have become entrenched. That, incidentally, is exactly what happens in the Year 7 disagreements I referenced. Somebody needs to step in and put a stop to the disagreements and get everybody to move forward with a common aim. Unfortunately, victims are so damaged that it's difficult to see that. If you really did have practical face-to-face experience of dealing with groups of victims you'd know that.

If you don’t have any experience of dealing with gangs of sexual abusers then what you “imagine” would happen is t at all valid a d is only conjured up to support your own viewpoint of silly Year 7 girls who can’t be trusted to speak of their experiences because they are too “damaged” to know what is good for them.

Everything you post just seems more and more awful to me and makes it blindingly clear why the victims in this case believe there is no justice for them.

That was a good thoughtful post, Terribull.

it was discussed on Question Time on the BBC last night. It became clear that the matter with Jess Phillips was because of the criticism of some of the victims, but not all. And there was considerable support for the speakers saying,

"although it was a crucial enquiry, we cannot let a small group of the survivors run the show, since they - quite naturally - don't agree about the way it needs to be run and attitudes to various people".

You need someone who allows everyone to have their say in a safe space, but you cant be ruled by a minority of survivors - you need someone above all who is willing to call out those who covered up the abuse, and it needs to be useful in a broad sense to us all - ie the results, to be useful not just revenge - any enquiry needs to address all grooming not just one section imo.

Allira

growstuff

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

There might well be but they might not wish to discuss anything on an open forum.

Iam does, iirc, in her long working life, but may not want to post.

However when I was an inpatient in Mental health in 2006/7 I knew one individual very well indeed. her father had farmed her out to his friends.
Mother was under his thumb and depressed.

We formed a friendship that helped us both. One day she was grumpy to me and I said whats up. she said "I'm afraid you'll think I'm common". so I said, "I'm afraid you'll think I'm posh" and we laughed.

And she never stopped loving her Dad despite that he was so powerful.

For her it resulted in being a "working woman" then unable to hold a relationship down, very severe Mental health problems to the extend she had to be sectioned many times. she remained the sweetest loving person I know, but it has impacted her two children.

Yes, abuse has a very long reach.

Sadly she ended up putting on a huge amount of weight (the meds, and not caring) - the last time I saw her she had to have a stoma bag

- I need to contact her really, but was struggling with abuse myself at the time - my fear is, that she is not still with us - her phone is no longer working - my intention is to send a Christmas Card with an SAE, she lives a long way away.

Lathyrus I'm not continuing with this. I do actually have practical experience of dealing with child sexual abuse. In at least two cases, the abusers were given lengthy prison sentences and I was placed in a position to support the victims, who are now middle-aged women.

In both cases, there were no groups involved and the abusers pleaded guilty. Both victims reacted very differently to what happened to them. I can imagine that if 20 victims were put in a group and asked to decide what they wanted to happen, they would come up with 20 different solutions. The way to move on would involve compromise. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened here is that outsiders have picked up on the agendas and "sides" have become entrenched. That, incidentally, is exactly what happens in the Year 7 disagreements I referenced. Somebody needs to step in and put a stop to the disagreements and get everybody to move forward with a common aim. Unfortunately, victims are so damaged that it's difficult to see that. If you really did have practical face-to-face experience of dealing with groups of victims you'd know that.

Maremia

If you are wanting only an echo chamber, then Gransnet is not the place. This is an open forum.
It is not up to you or any other of us to dictate what may be discussed, within the rules.
Why not just skip past the posts that 'annoy' you. There are always plenty of others to read and agree with.

No, I realise that and I didn't think this thread was an echo chamber because there can hardly be anyone who would argue that this particular topic is not heart-rending and it is horrific. The worry is that the Enquiry will be delayed yet again because some survivors, justifiably, do feel mistrust for those in authority, a few of whom let them down.

I'm not trying to make the rules, not at all, but I think it's important for this particular thread not to be taken off track.
Others may wish to start a thread about their own trauma, which might be a different experience and of course deserves sympathy.

I will, of course, take your advice and skip past irrelevant posts, although saying they annnoy me is untrue.

growstuff

Who's exonerating the criminals? Nobody on this thread and I haven't seen anybody trying to do that elsewhere. Please could we stick to facts.

You asked if anyone had experience so I shared mine, which included the all to common phenomena of those connected to the criminals, defending and exonerating them.
Accusations of victims and people who speak out are a significant part of this.

If you want to apply that to this thread, it is your viewpoint you are applying, not mine.

A defensive rea

growstuff

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

There might well be but they might not wish to discuss anything on an open forum.

I apologise in advance for my post which is somewhat of a digression from the OP, but this was something that focused my mind on what it must be like to be an abused child and not to be believed.

Some years ago, my friend arranged a meet up, on behalf of her brother who was back on a visit from the US where he was living, Those gathered knew each other from school and church attendance. Sitting next to him in the Indian restaurant where we were all having a meal, now as adults, in our growing up years, he was very much the kid brother to our mid teens. We got on to the subject of abuse of children within the church, at the time it was all over the news in the states and he said "what's come out is just tip of the iceberg, did you know it was going on at St J when when I was a kid". I realise from what he told me the male child was far more at risk in this context than girls, they were the ones that became Altar Boys, something that could be conferred from an early age. He mentioned a friend of his who I remember as a child mainly because he had one of those standout Irish names. As an Altar Boy he'd been sexually assaulted a number of times by a priest, as a result had developed behavioural problems, eventually it all came out. His horrified parents, approached the Parish Priest who wouldn't have it, culminating in manipulating them not to believe him, theirs was a mischief making devil child. I asked friend's brother, "where is he now" reply "dead", he would have been in his 20s by then. His life descended into a drug taking spiral, friend not sure whether it was overdose or suicide. What he did tell him though "not being believed was worse than the abuse" Text book scenario as to the priest, he was simply moved on to no doubt repeat.

Some years later my mother telling me her parish had a lovely African priest now, "such a shortage of home grown priests" she lamented. Me, rather harshly "well they're all inside" Her "I know the church has not behaved well in this matter, but there are still an overwhelming majority of good people within" and of course she was right and that parallel applies to any community. The church covered up, moved priests on, obfuscated which has overwhelmingly contributed to the lack of trust, if they hadn't maybe they'd have come out better. The boil needed to be lanced long before the poison had built up to the extent it had and it's the same for the grooming gangs it needs to be tackled head on otherwise the distrust will become so much worse.

growstuff

tinaf1

As other posters have said here it’s not just the rapists and abusers who should/ have been brought to justice but the authorities who have let these girls down so badly and in some cases been part of the problem.
So you can see why some of the victims have resigned
Sadly going by previous enquiries Hillsborough the Post Offce etc this never seem to be the case.

No, I'm afraid I don't see why they've resigned. Of course some in authority should be brought to justice as well as the abusers. What's happened to prevent that happening?

I think from what I understand is they resigned because the panel or enquiry team was going to be made up of police and social workers the very people who enabled the abuse
Also it seemed that this would not be about what happened to them but it would incorporate wider issues of child abuse in general correct me if I’m wrong
If this was the case then if I was one of those girls I don’t think I would have much faith in an enquiry team of that nature

Who's exonerating the criminals? Nobody on this thread and I haven't seen anybody trying to do that elsewhere. Please could we stick to facts.

Lathyrus3

growstuff

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

Oh yes. Much experience.

And also with the perpetrators who try in every way to minimise the damage they have done and the sheer inhumanity of their crimes.

And most perplexing, those who, whilst not committing the crime, seek to exonerate the criminals and blame the victim.

OK! So if you have practical experience of dealing with victims, what's your solution for breaking the impasse? You must know as well as I do that victims of trauma need to be shown compassion but don't always make decisions in their own best interests. If they were abused as children or young teenagers, they sometimes shut down the normal processes which young people develop as they mature. That's really not surprising and is nothing to do with blame. I had the feeling from listening to Jim Gamble that he understands that.

So what's your solution to the impasse?

growstuff

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

Oh yes. Much experience.

And also with the perpetrators who try in every way to minimise the damage they have done and the sheer inhumanity of their crimes.

And most perplexing, those who, whilst not committing the crime, seek to exonerate the criminals and blame the victim.

Who will be the biggest beneficiaries if the inquiry fails to get off the ground? Those in authority who were either callously indifferent to the victims or too afraid of being labeled racist, so happily sold the victims down the river. That's police, social workers and the courts who thought it appropriate to blame girls for being raped.

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

tinaf1

As other posters have said here it’s not just the rapists and abusers who should/ have been brought to justice but the authorities who have let these girls down so badly and in some cases been part of the problem.
So you can see why some of the victims have resigned
Sadly going by previous enquiries Hillsborough the Post Offce etc this never seem to be the case.

No, I'm afraid I don't see why they've resigned. Of course some in authority should be brought to justice as well as the abusers. What's happened to prevent that happening?

Rosie51 I understand the issues and I understand what they're saying. However, we now have a situation where one group is calling for the sacking of Jess Phillips and another group is saying that it will resign if Jess doesn't stay. There's an impasse. What's the solution? There are going to have to be compromises and proper, calm discussions.

If there are no compromises and survivors stick to their guns with lawyers involved (to earn their fees), the inquiry won't go ahead, so all the survivors will lose out (and the lawyers will still get their fees). How exactly does that help?

growstuff the panel seems to have fallen out in part because at least one panel member who suffered at the hands of the grooming gangs also suffered other sexual abuse from non gang members and would like the inquiry widened to include all abuse. I've said all along I think that would be a mistake. Nobody would deny that more needs to be done to address all sexual abuse but the wider the remit of any inquiry the more diluted the conclusions and the longer it will take. This inquiry has been sparked because authorities not only 'turned a blind eye' to the abuse because of the ethnicity of these gangs, they went so far as to criminalise some of the victims, and this needs to fully and exclusively addressed.

As other posters have said here it’s not just the rapists and abusers who should/ have been brought to justice but the authorities who have let these girls down so badly and in some cases been part of the problem.
So you can see why some of the victims have resigned
Sadly going by previous enquiries Hillsborough the Post Offce etc this never seem to be the case.