Grooming gangs in London

Lathyrus Take a step back and think it through rationally.

Lathyrus3

Of all the derailing tactics, turning the victims of these Asian grooming gangs into silly little schoolgirls having a squabble has to be the worst.

Unspeakable. Unbelievable.

Except, like the rapes, here it is,

Yes, I know, which is why I acknowledged that I felt bad about doing it, but I'm afraid that's how these differences are coming across. I knew that people like you would attack me for being honest about how the differences appear.

Galaxy

I just laugh out loud when people try to shout racist, it has zero impact on me whatsoever. I will continue to talk about this specific issue and if you want to imply that somehow links me to lynching of black men, crack on.

It seems to me that people who could have taken action, but didn't, were being racist. It seems that they were bigoted enough to think that Asian men are abusers and working class girls with troubled backgrounds are slags, who would do anything for drugs, alcohol and a few trinkets - so just let them get on with it.

That kind of attitude prevailed for centuries. Just let the lower orders get on with their disgusting habits, so long as they're kept separate from those with higher morals. Then came along the "do gooders" (woke?), who wanted to save their souls, but were derided by their peers and some of those whom they were trying to save. (Read Charles Dickens.)

It's not racist to point out real issues, if they are supported by facts. It would be racist to assume that this group of criminals represents everybody within a certain demographic.

Of all the derailing tactics, turning the victims of these Asian grooming gangs into silly little schoolgirls having a squabble has to be the worst.

Unspeakable. Unbelievable.

Except, like the rapes, here it is,

Yup. That’s what I mean about attempts to discredit the victims.

I was so shocked when you did it before, calling them “almost paranoid” that I didn’t respond to that post. But here it is again.

I really thought that the time when people thought victims were responsible for the rape was past.

By the way Lathyrus if you think I'm trying to discredit the whistle blowers by pointing out the problems in the Maggie Oliver Foundation, you're wrong.

I have never discredited what MO has said, but it is true that some of the survivors who have had personal experience of her organisation are not so glowing with admiration as some people on here. It is also true that a former senior employee has been charged with leaking information. It is alleged that MO knew but covered up. While that's going on in the background, she really must not be appointed to chair an inquiry, where child protection is at the core.

Lathyrus3

I think this thread shows in a microcosm exactly how the inquiry has fallen into complete disarray.

On here almost every tactic, including discrediting the whistleblowers and even the victims, has been employed in an attempt to render it a pointless exercise.

These may relate to personal views of how cases of abuse should be handled or they may be part of something wider.

It is a revelation either way.

To be honest, I was thinking that anybody who has ever been a secondary school teacher will be familiar with the scenario in the first term of Year 7.

Unfortunately, it seems that the panel of survivors has fallen out. It would be patronising to think of them squabbling like Year 7s I have known, but it really is tempting. I hope Baroness Casey does step in here because she has experience of knocking heads together.

Oreo

Rosie51

Abuse of children by adults is quite different to abuse of adults by other adults. I'm amazed that anyone doesn't recognise the power imbalance at the starting point. Adult abuse of other adults is reprehensible, but adult abuse of children is on another level beyond the pale. In my opinion, other opinions are available.

Totally agree.
All the deflections on here about different types of abuse just muddy the waters really, as it’s just a thread on a forum that’s not important but it becomes very important if those in positions of some power try and muddy the waters around the grooming gangs by widening the remit of the enquiry to include different patterns of abuse.
The ethnicity and religion of the gangs is of prime importance as it was because of them that the authorities turned a blind eye and in some cases colluded with these vile men, instead of building a case against them.

That last point is valid and, of course, why there has been so much pressure from certain quarters for an inquiry. "Grooming gangs" has become a synonym for "Asian grooming gangs*.

I've been thinking about the issue quite a lot over the last couple of days.

There is a case for examining all sexual abuse, especially of children, but that's a massive undertaking. It's been the subject of many books and articles over the past few decades. There's a place for it because attitudes have changed, even in our lifetimes and will hopefully change more in the future.

Baroness Jay's report, which took 7 years, studied child sexual abuse and exploitation in general. It was published in 2022(?). There were 20 recommendations, but I understand that to date only one has been implemented. It would be a massive waste of money to set up a new inquiry with the same remit. What's needed now is for the original recommendations to be actioned.

This new inquiry should be different. The question of ethnicity has been raised and is not going to go away. The scope of the new inquiry hasn't been decided (that's what the current disagreements are about), but it definitely should address the specific circumstances of the CSE cases within a certain parameter. It needs to limit its scope, if it's going to have any effect. What that effect will be is still to be decided. I suspect the survivors themselves prioritise bringing those responsible for the abuse and covering up to justice, but that's going to need criminal trials. The inquiry can provide evidence for the trials - incidentally, that's why a judge is the wrong person to lead the inquiry at this stage.

The second effect of the inquiry must be to prevent exploitation and abuse from happening in the future (as far as possible). Therefore, the inquiry must examine in detail and honesty what it is about the religion and/or ethnicity of certain groups which appears to make gang abuse more prevalent (having established that it is true). It's the only way to shut down the toxic weaponising of child abuse by the racist far right.

PS. I think some posters have been particularly mean to Wyllow. It must be obvious that she's upset about the abuse she's suffered and doesn't deserve harsh words. This thread probably isn't the right place for her to post about her experiences and I disagree with her views about the scope of the inquiries, but there's no need to be mean. I would have hoped GN would be better than that.

Lathryus I agree that this thread demonstrates the conflicting ideas, strongly held and often influenced by personal experience, creates an environment where objective reflection is hindered

I think this thread shows in a microcosm exactly how the inquiry has fallen into complete disarray.

On here almost every tactic, including discrediting the whistleblowers and even the victims, has been employed in an attempt to render it a pointless exercise.

These may relate to personal views of how cases of abuse should be handled or they may be part of something wider.

It is a revelation either way.

I don't know how the quantum leap of wanting to stick to the point, the point in the subject under scrutiny being grooming and abuse committed by one ethnicity, in these particular cases, could be conflated with the lynching of black men. No one is above the law, priests and clerics have hidden behind a cloak of being untouchable for decades and just look at the damage they wrought on their victims. Somehow I don't think the voices that are opposed to demonising one particular ethnicity, would throw their hands up in horror at the criticism of priests and how the church tried to cover all that up. Of course there are some bad people in every community, uncomfortable as it may be, it has to be faced head on.

I’m increasingly convinced this inquiry needs to focus on its original remit, to investigate the abuse of children by organised groups of men who were of largely Muslim, Pakistani heritage. Some were related to each other, cousins and brothers. The involved young men/boys from their families,ies or communities. Their told was to become a boyfriend then introduce their victim to the group.

The way girls were sometimes prosecuted, like the drunk 11 and 12 year olds gg13 mentions, or the girl portrayed in the three girls drama. She became a S1 offender because the gang got her to introduce friends to them. This meant she wasn’t allowed to participate in the trial of her abusers. As a ‘sex offender’ her evidence would be rubbished. Just like Virgnis Guiffre

As well as this inquiry focussing on this particular form of organised sex offending, I’d hope links between this kind of offending outside the family and similsr within families or communities needs examining

It’s bad enough growing up ‘in care’ without a loving family isn’t it? Children whose parents have died or are in prison suddenly find themselves adrift in an institution, which however pleasant ( and we can’t assume they all are) are not home.Also the poor kids who’ve never known love dragged up in abusive or neglected homes by chaotic parents.
These kids, by the time they’re teenagers are angry and vulnerable, appearing tough but in reality seeking love and attention.
Then come the men in taxis….

Or a wishy washy diluting of the enquiry either GG13👍🏻

Oreo I agree these were children who were let down by the very people who should have been taking care of them.

I do not want any other child to suffer like these.

I do not want a wish washy statement of lessons have been learnt

I think that Allira and many of us are right to want to stay on topic about the terrible abuse of youngsters by grooming gangs.

I just laugh out loud when people try to shout racist, it has zero impact on me whatsoever. I will continue to talk about this specific issue and if you want to imply that somehow links me to lynching of black men, crack on.

DaisyAnneReturns

Allira

Report again if you wish.

But I will point out that this is about children abused by grooming gangs and constant deflections are a distraction.

That may be all you want to talk about Allira but threads have always expanded and followed additional argument so why is this one different?

I cannot see how any attempt to narrow it helps. The attacks on one ethnic or religious group seem very like the views of those in the USA that lead to the attacks and lynching of black men to me.

What aggressors need to know is that they committing a criminal offence, that they will be caught, and that they will be punished. That should apply to all.

Justice of course applies to all.

There is no denying that these children were abused by organised gangs of Asian men who were according to the police predominantly Pakistani.

Why they thought they could get away with it, why the girls were not taken notice of.

Why two 11 years olds were found drunk and naked in a house with these men were charged with being drunk and disorderly and the men got off scott free

Acknowledging these girls pain does not detract from other victims of abuse, but this was a horrendous series of crimes, unless we understand how and why they will continue.

If posters feel it would help them to talk about their own domestic abuse cases, it would be better under a new thread under the health heading, where like minded people could read, tell their own stories or just sympathise.

Rosie51

Abuse of children by adults is quite different to abuse of adults by other adults. I'm amazed that anyone doesn't recognise the power imbalance at the starting point. Adult abuse of other adults is reprehensible, but adult abuse of children is on another level beyond the pale. In my opinion, other opinions are available.

Totally agree.
All the deflections on here about different types of abuse just muddy the waters really, as it’s just a thread on a forum that’s not important but it becomes very important if those in positions of some power try and muddy the waters around the grooming gangs by widening the remit of the enquiry to include different patterns of abuse.
The ethnicity and religion of the gangs is of prime importance as it was because of them that the authorities turned a blind eye and in some cases colluded with these vile men, instead of building a case against them.

Allira

Report again if you wish.

But I will point out that this is about children abused by grooming gangs and constant deflections are a distraction.

That may be all you want to talk about Allira but threads have always expanded and followed additional argument so why is this one different?

I cannot see how any attempt to narrow it helps. The attacks on one ethnic or religious group seem very like the views of those in the USA that lead to the attacks and lynching of black men to me.

What aggressors need to know is that they committing a criminal offence, that they will be caught, and that they will be punished. That should apply to all.

It appears that GN has members who object to these children having an enquiry of their own, just as like some MP’s, Councillors and Police Officers 🤷‍♀️

Bloody typo ‘victims’not vitamins 😩
Sound like KS with his sausages statement

Rosie51

Abuse of children by adults is quite different to abuse of adults by other adults. I'm amazed that anyone doesn't recognise the power imbalance at the starting point. Adult abuse of other adults is reprehensible, but adult abuse of children is on another level beyond the pale. In my opinion, other opinions are available.

Absolutely correct 👍🏻

Yes GS, they should have been done, I agree with that. What is the point of these charity foundations, if they aren’t going to protect the very people it was set up for?