Palestine for the Palestinian peoples, Israel for the Israeli peoples

Errrm...what has a book called the Old Testament to do with anything and wondering when some people started designating it a history book?

It's a book - like any other book and not a factual record of events - though I know some people quote it as if it is. That doesn't make it so though....right from the start of "The world was created in 7 days (well 6 and the 7th was a day of rest)".....errr...I think not....

Oreo

For those not in the know, CariadAgain means the State of Israel when she mistakenly and deliberately calls it Palestine and calls for non Palestinians (Jews) to be sent back to the countries they originally came from i.e Germany or anywhere else.
A more antisemitic comment you’d be hard pushed to find.

and totally inaccurate. I do wish people would learn a bit of history before making sweeping statements. Are people so ignorant of the Old Testament? Don't they know that the Jews were forced to leave their homeland?
Something I didn't know until recently is that the people who we call Palestinians/Philistines are actually descended from Greeks. So they invaded southern Palestine many centuries ago.

keepingquiet

Grantanow

That is what the UN tried to achieve after WW2 but the Palestinians rejected the deal and the Arab countries tried to kill Israel resulting in the Israelis acquiring more land.

Not sure it was this simple. The British promised the Palestinians their own state in the Balfour agreement and then walked away when Israel began its incursions into previous Palestinian territiory.

The British relinquished the UN mandate. That's not the same as walking away. It was up to the UN to carry out its two state plan which the Palestinians at the time rejected. The Balfour Declaration was obviously superseded by the later UN plan.

Oreo Obviously they did their best but everything under the control and at the whim of Israel meant it wasn’t easy. Even the huge walls Israel built are actually well inside the Gazan border. . Instead of where they should have been, on the Israeli side of the border. Another land grab.
Gazans couldn’t object or if they tried , it woukd have been ignored but this encroachment was also ignored by the rest of the world.
Israel has always done what it wants to do with total impunity, knowing that they will not be criticised. This will have changed now and Israel has lost the unquestioning support and protection from criticism it has relied on for so long.

Gaza had to take it on the chin, like it has always had to do. Being powerless, controlled by others on a tiny crowded piece of land with no free movement does not make for a contented population but yes their lives are now much worse with no sign of an end to it, other than death.

If the position was reversed and it was Israelis living like Palestinians I don’t suppose they would take it too kindly. Indeed when the Brits occupied Palestine back in the 1940s there were Jewish terrorist groups - am sure Israelis call them freedom fighters - who blew up British soldiers and any civilians nearby, in fact Menachem Begin was an active member of one group.
So, what we should take away from this is that human nature is such that we will always resist occupation and oppression.
And those doing the oppressing will always be appalled and shocked when this happens.
You would think the penny would have dropped by now, but then I suppose the desire for power and land at the price of others freedom is also human nature.

Grantanow

That is what the UN tried to achieve after WW2 but the Palestinians rejected the deal and the Arab countries tried to kill Israel resulting in the Israelis acquiring more land.

They rejected the deal because it was the starting point for negotiations & offered the Palestinian population c 48% of the land for 66% of the population, and the poorer land at that.

They expected some movement on this initial offer, but once they had that rejection, the British went ahead & imposed that division anyway & were pretty ineffectual when the Israelis proceeded to take even more of the land by force.

Anyway no matter what we think, the Turkish President has just sanctioned a whole list of Israeli Politicians because of the Genocide in Gaza.
Nobody can blame the BBC for that decision.

Maybe the way to think is to ask people "Would you personally feel okay about being made to live that way?" - and yep....take that back to "How would you feel personally having to live with the conditions of 2 years ago? What would be your thoughts and emotions about all the restrictions, shortages etc even then and then to just look across that wall they built and see that others are getting so much better a life than you are within your own country (ie much better standard of living, no restrictions, etc).

Smileless2012

^There were some restrictions^ well that's one way of putting it. There shouldn't have been any restrictions. Israel had no right to cut power when it felt like it and reduce access to water at a whim, just as Israeli's have no right to steal land from Palestinians on the West Bank.

What Hamas may or may not have spent money on is totally irrelevant Oreo unless you're suggesting that Hamas paid Israel to disrupt power and water supplies.

Not irrelevant at all, they could have improved their small country immensely.

To be a parent in Gaza now must be a nightmare, true, but not two years ago.

Unlike almost every country which suffers violence, their population can seek safety by leaving for a neighbouring country, or one further away , which is what has been happening over the last 10 years. Palestinians cannot leave gaza, there is no escape. They have no choice but to suffer the daily pain and fear of their children dying, whether in the rubble , by starvation, lack of medical treatment, perhaps being shot at randomly by Israeli soldiers or hit by rockets. Maybe getting caught up in street fights between the Israeli supported clans vs Hamas.

Just sit and imagine that for a few moments. How would we feel? Absolutely bloody desperate. To be a parent in Gaza or the West Bank but especially Gaza must be the worst possible nightmare, the very real fear of your child being killed at anytime must be uppermost in their minds.

Gaza is hardly mentioned by the media now and the West Bank even less, check Basel Ardra Oscar winning film director of No other Land, who still reports on daily attacks and killings by violence from settlers. It has not ended, it still goes on and people including many children, are still dying every day.

There were some restrictions well that's one way of putting it. There shouldn't have been any restrictions. Israel had no right to cut power when it felt like it and reduce access to water at a whim, just as Israeli's have no right to steal land from Palestinians on the West Bank.

What Hamas may or may not have spent money on is totally irrelevant Oreo unless you're suggesting that Hamas paid Israel to disrupt power and water supplies.

There have been various reports where women were talking about their lovely houses, gardens, veg patch and chickens.
Most people there had all mod cons and tech in their lives.
There were some restrictions.

No doubt you will deny this too Oreo. Or just blame Hamas though life was like this in Gaza before Hamas.

This report about life in Gaza can easily be found with a quick search on Gaza -

“Economic and Living Conditions
High Poverty and Unemployment: The economy was in severe decline, with a poverty rate of over 53% and one of the highest unemployment rates in the world at around 45% overall and 70% for youth. An estimated 80% of the population relied on international aid to survive.
Infrastructure Deficiencies: Residents faced daily challenges due to inadequate infrastructure. There were constant electricity cuts, with power available for only an average of 11-12 hours per day. Access to clean water was limited, with 78% of piped water unfit for human consumption, and the sewage system was in critical condition.
Movement Restrictions: The Israeli and Egyptian blockade severely restricted the movement of people and goods, effectively making Gaza an "open-air prison". Most Gazans could not leave the territory, limiting access to specialized medical care or educational opportunities abroad.
Fragile Healthcare System: The healthcare system was on the brink of collapse, with frequent shortages of essential medicines and supplies. ”

Babs03

Oreo

Which land Babs3?
I agree that building in the West Bank should stop, and shouldn’t have been started, but all of Gaza was and is there for Palestinians.

Even before this all started Gaza was dubbed an open air prison, blockaded, and with its citizens unable to access Israel without documents, having to submit to rigorous security checks. Electricity would be rationed to just a handful of hours a day, clean water was not always available and Gazans were not allowed to access Israeli hospitals when in need of specialist services.
So let’s not pretend Gaza has ever been a place where Palestinians had a great quality of life, but at least they had a life, until now.

I don’t know where you get all that from?! No clean water? There were many hospitals in Gaza, an amazing amount for a tiny country with only 2 million people in it, far less than in a single city in the UK.There has been so much money channeled into Gaza and if hamas chose to spend it on the wrong things that was down to them.I have heard many Gazans bemoaning the war ( can’t blame them for that) and saying what a wonderful life they used to have.
The rigorous security checks from Gazans going into Israel were needed as there had been terror incidents before, with cafes targeted as well as other places.

AGAA4

It is forgotten by some that Palestinians have been oppressed by Israel for many years. Where there is oppression there will be unrest which resulted in the attack on Israel.
Nobody condones that awful attack but I can see how the seeds were sown.
I have no doubt that Israel want a Gaza that is cleared of Palestinians.

Not so much forgotten I’m afraid, more conveniently overlooked.

It is forgotten by some that Palestinians have been oppressed by Israel for many years. Where there is oppression there will be unrest which resulted in the attack on Israel.
Nobody condones that awful attack but I can see how the seeds were sown.
I have no doubt that Israel want a Gaza that is cleared of Palestinians.

Oreo

Which land Babs3?
I agree that building in the West Bank should stop, and shouldn’t have been started, but all of Gaza was and is there for Palestinians.

Even before this all started Gaza was dubbed an open air prison, blockaded, and with its citizens unable to access Israel without documents, having to submit to rigorous security checks. Electricity would be rationed to just a handful of hours a day, clean water was not always available and Gazans were not allowed to access Israeli hospitals when in need of specialist services.
So let’s not pretend Gaza has ever been a place where Palestinians had a great quality of life, but at least they had a life, until now.

Oreo

Which land Babs3?
I agree that building in the West Bank should stop, and shouldn’t have been started, but all of Gaza was and is there for Palestinians.

There's an up-to-date map up there on Chat GPT of just how much of the West Bank has already been claimed. There's rather a lot of black dots up there indicating where squatters are living there now. I think it was on there too - certainly on a pretty objective news channel - explaining that this is deliberate strategy and where the IDF are located there for them to grab the West Bank bit by bit. They've already grabbed a heck of a lot of it.

Grantanow

That is what the UN tried to achieve after WW2 but the Palestinians rejected the deal and the Arab countries tried to kill Israel resulting in the Israelis acquiring more land.

So would you accept a plan where you give up property that’s been in your family for generations? In 1948 Israelis forcibly ejected Palestinians from their property and land and it’s still going on. You should do a search on ‘Naqba’.

Which land Babs3?
I agree that building in the West Bank should stop, and shouldn’t have been started, but all of Gaza was and is there for Palestinians.

More household anecdotes.
If anyone agrees that Israeli Jews should be sent back to their country of origin and that there should be no State of Israel then maybe they will say so?

Oreo

If hamas had run Gaza peacefully and spent money on their people there was a chance that in time there would have been a two State solution. Now, there’s little chance of that happening.

Seeing only one side of this will never result in peace. There is a bloody history of conflict in this region, before Hamas were even players. And if Palestinians are routinely and regularly treated like second class citizens with their land and property taken from them by force there will be more violence and bloodshed because throughout the history of mankind people who are oppressed will rise up against their oppressors.
We saw this in South Africa, and is ongoing in countries with Kurdish populations, and the answer is simple, stop oppressing the people and give them their land and their rights. Especially the right to return.

Just been reminded too that, if anyone thought I wouldnt = I took in lodgers years back for a while and one of them had been given his notice (for a very good reason - ie he was refusing to pay the agreed rent - because his personal circumstances had changed and he'd not told me/asked for my agreement) and the police escorted him off the premises (as I'd put all his stuff outside for him to collect).

So - yep...it wouldnt matter what some other "body" had said. If it was mine and I'd not sold or given it away myself = it would still be mine.