Never here Keir?

David, you still haven’t addressed the fundamental question.

Which is ‘What is the source of a nation’s money?’

It’s no good mansplaining bonds to me, I know all about bonds.

But money is needed to purchase bonds and it doesn’t grow on trees, nor can it be found lying around the countryside for anyone to pick up and use. No one has a money printing machine in their garage (unless they are a criminal) It’s like a river, it has a SOURCE, it starts somewhere. Who starts it off?

Historically money was created as a token, an IOU to trade goods and pay wages.
Today banks supply it in large quantities under supervision of a central bank, in our case the BoE. Any concept that money is limitless is entirely misplaced,

David49

Historically money was created as a token, an IOU to trade goods and pay wages.
Today banks supply it in large quantities under supervision of a central bank, in our case the BoE. Any concept that money is limitless is entirely misplaced,

You're still not addressing the question.

Try it another way. What gives money its legitimacy?

Why do we use pounds sterling and not bitcoin or seashells for our financial transactions?

Why does our physical currency have the monarch's head on it?

Starmer in South Africa for G20 today.

Obviously concerns about his absences have fallen on deaf ears.

I doubt if him being absent makes any real difference. He's 'absent' when he's here. McSweeny seems to be running the show and Starmer just doing what he is told...

I didn't expect that answer but I agree wholeheartedly!

MaizieD

David49

Historically money was created as a token, an IOU to trade goods and pay wages.
Today banks supply it in large quantities under supervision of a central bank, in our case the BoE. Any concept that money is limitless is entirely misplaced,

You're still not addressing the question.

Try it another way. What gives money its legitimacy?

Why do we use pounds sterling and not bitcoin or seashells for our financial transactions?

Why does our physical currency have the monarch's head on it?

“I promise to pay the bearer”

Trust, that the state is running the economy efficiently, having to pay £100 billion in interest each year is not a good policy.

Still not answering the question, David

We can argue about servicing our 'debt' later. But first of all, my original statement which started it:

"Why should the government that issues the money have to borrow it back from its recipients?" (Well, words to that effect)

You didn't seem to understand what I was saying...

Suzie Dent’s word of the day today.

quokerwodger (19th century)

definition- a puppet politician who’s strings are being pulled by someone else.

Goodness, that's a new one on me!
Very apt, though.

Allira

Goodness, that's a new one on me!
Very apt, though.

I thought this was the Nathan Gill thread, thinking it was very apt for him.

GrannyGravy13

Suzie Dent’s word of the day today.

quokerwodger (19th century)

definition- a puppet politician who’s strings are being pulled by someone else.

So Two Tier Never Here Kier is also a Quokerwodger too 😂
As Allira says, quite apt 😂

Spinnaker

GrannyGravy13

Suzie Dent’s word of the day today.

quokerwodger (19th century)

definition- a puppet politician who’s strings are being pulled by someone else.

So Two Tier Never Here Kier is also a Quokerwodger too 😂
As Allira says, quite apt 😂

I did mean Nathan Gill but got the wrong thread!!

MaizieD

Still not answering the question, David

We can argue about servicing our 'debt' later. But first of all, my original statement which started it:

"Why should the government that issues the money have to borrow it back from its recipients?" (Well, words to that effect)

You didn't seem to understand what I was saying...

I’m not sure you understand what you are saying.

The only answer is that it’s what we all do and exactly the same happens in all free countries. Are you thinking of unlimited everything for everyone, whether you put in any effort at all to earn or justify it. We are a long way from real world economics.

The only answer is that it’s what we all do and exactly the same happens in all free countries.

So. if you gave, say, one of your children, a sum of money but then needed it back, would you give them an IOU in exchange for it and pay them interest on the full amount for a fixed number of years?

My children it’s my choice, in any case I would only lend against a useful asset, if it’s a house they could sell it to repay.

That’s not relevant to any form of state economics

David49

My children it’s my choice, in any case I would only lend against a useful asset, if it’s a house they could sell it to repay.

That’s not relevant to any form of state economics

It wasn't a good analogy, I was going to rephrase it. I emphasise that this is an analogy' You do know what an 'analogy' is, don't you?

Suppose you gave your child some money (forget about 'lending ' it against an asset, it isn't applicable to this analogy) and they then asked you to look after it, So you gave them a piece of paper saying that you had that money, and then paid them interest on it, as if it were a bank deposit.

Does this seem like a logical thing to do?

This is, in effect, what a government does when it issues bonds.

Why on earth would anyone give this government or any, an interest free sum of money?
Inflation erodes the value of money on a daily basis.
Do you think the government should be run as a charity? MaizieD

The prime minister has travelled more and further than any other British leader in official history, including almost double the distance that Sir Tony Blair covered in the same period in office .
Starmer has visited 44 countries on 37 trips out of the country to attend conferences, bilateral meetings and sports fixtures. During his first 17 months in office, Starmer has spent two and a half months abroad.

What a brilliant record. It's certainly impressive that he has mended so many of the fences broken by the Conservatives while in government. No, he doesn't have charisma but then, it's not actually been a requirement of PMs in the past has it. Just think of:

Clement Attlee (the gold-standard example: highly successful, historically monumental, and notably uncharismatic)
John Major
Gordon Brown
Theresa May
Ramsay MacDonald

The idea of "bread and circuses" being provided for the plebian masses of Rome was put forward as a criticism of how the Roman ruling elite kept the Roman population satisfied and politically passive, i.e, that is not how to run a country. Even they did not insist on their governing leader being chief clown and I would have thought we would have had enough if that in our recent past not to ask for more!

ronib

Why on earth would anyone give this government or any, an interest free sum of money?
Inflation erodes the value of money on a daily basis.
Do you think the government should be run as a charity? MaizieD

I think is is running the country as a charity

“
Suppose you gave your child some money (forget about 'lending ' it against an asset, it isn't applicable to this analogy) and they then asked you to look after it, So you gave them a piece of paper saying that you had that money, and then paid them interest on it, as if it were a bank deposit.

Does this seem like a logical thing to do?

This is, in effect, what a government does when it issues bonds“

I cant imagine doing that, it’s probably dodgy from a tax standpoint too. I like children and GC to run their own finances, I will fund a project but only money for a secure asset and I would not get involved first hand I would guarantee the loan from others.

If the state wants a loan (bond), the investor is taking a risk so wants interest plus the capital back at the end of the term.

The problem with your socialist utopia is that nobody has any incentive to work the state does everything, communism by any other name and to get anything done workers would have to be forced to work. The Soviet’s tried that, China is more successful, but the elite get all the money and the gap between rich and poor is one of the highest. The workers go where they are told if they complain they are sent to a re-education camp.

ronib

Why on earth would anyone give this government or any, an interest free sum of money?
Inflation erodes the value of money on a daily basis.
Do you think the government should be run as a charity? MaizieD

I suppose if you lend the Government money by buying Premium Bonds and never win then that would count.

Just a reminder - UK’s economy ranks 6th in the world? Seriously we’re down to this?

ronib

Just a reminder - UK’s economy ranks 6th in the world? Seriously we’re down to this?

Yes, but Nvidia now has a value higher than the economy of Japan, which ranks 4th, the giants of the US and China are sucking all our wealth away.

DAR- 10.40. In the context of Ukraine war, Gaza, Trump's global tariff challenges, Climate emergency, need to align more closely with EU etc etc, I agree that the UK PM needs to be outwardly facing to promote diplomacy and protect UK interests. There's a lot that went wrong in this country over past years and continues to do so- but there is an awful lot going on globally also.

"Starmer has visited 44 countries on 37 trips out of the country to attend conferences, bilateral meetings and sports fixtures."

I guess the UK PM as UK representative was expected to attend these conferences and bilateral meetings? Not sure about the extent of the proportion of sports fixtures in number of countries visited and whether they formed part of his PM's role or undertaken in his private life?