"Democracy is the problem Capitalism is trying to solve."

I’d like more context tbh. It doesn’t sound like Monbiot.

Actually, I’ll look it up myself 😊

It's just your (and everyone else's) view I was asking for Whitewave. I thought it useful to debate.

You may agree, you may partially agree, you may partially disagree or disagree completely. No one needs "context" for that.

Well at the moment I think it is comparing chalk and cheese. Capitalism doesn’t solve any political problems. It just is.

So I think if you don’t mind I will read the article to get a better handle on it then get back.

What's that age old saying about democracy DAR? "No matter who you vote for, the government always gets in".
I personally think that it's the other way round. What sort of capitalism do we need to make the democracy we need to work.

Is there an article? OP said it was a podcast.

I can’t manage podcasts, I don’t retain the detail. I need to have the written word to refer to. So, unless there is a transcript I can’t comment.

Though, I would suggest that democracy is a problem for capitalism because it can impose limits which capital finds irksome and prevent it accumulating maximum wealth.

Just note the current situation in the US where some very prominent capitalists are supporting a very undemocratic regime…

Link - curtesy of a banned poster 😀😀😀

www.monbiot.com/2025/04/02/how-capitalism-crashes-democracy/

bonbons01

What's that age old saying about democracy DAR? "No matter who you vote for, the government always gets in".
I personally think that it's the other way round. What sort of capitalism do we need to make the democracy we need to work.

Thanks bonbons.

My first reaction was "can that be true". My second was to think the word "extreme" in front of "capitalism.

I do think recent extreme capitalists may see democracy as a problem. So we probably should be asking your question "What sort of capitalism do we need to make the democracy we need to work."

Whitewavemark2

Link - curtesy of a banned poster 😀😀😀

www.monbiot.com/2025/04/02/how-capitalism-crashes-democracy/

Why try and make my OP more difficult than it needs to be Whitewave? Do you think my quote is accurate? If not what does it tell us, etc., etc.

Hey ho. Have a good day.

Imo it makes the OP a lot easier.

I can now begin to discuss the question posed with more sense than before I read (well I haven’t yet - will as soon as I finished fiddling around) the article.

But thanks for the OP, good to get one’s teeth into something.

This will be right up maizie’s street😊

Whitewavemark2

This will be right up maizie’s street😊

Well, I did hint at it in my second post 😆

I'm not sure how one can discuss a proposition without knowing the rationale for its proposal...

My first thought

There is a dichotomy between capitalism and democracy, which is revealed by the way the owners of capital behave and the way that democracy works.

Still haven’t read the article btw😊

You're right about extreme capitalism, DAR, but I do also think that capitalism in general does need an overhaul to work for the real needs of all people.

I can't disagree with you there Maizie.

I haven't got time right now to read your link WW2, as I have appointments, but I'll definitely have a look later.

I'll add, I think democracy needs an overhaul too, especially in the general election in the UK.

So I guess in DAR’s terms extreme capitalism would be uninhibited capital, free to make profit where and how it likes without any controls like environmental, employee, unfair trading practice , control over quality of food etc.

I don’t think that exists anywhere in the world. However, there are degrees of control, and this is where you see the struggle between capital and people (labour) taking place.

So neoliberalism, is generally seen as the economy with the least control over capital. However, it does impose certain restrictions usually to ensure capital and profit thrive with the least control possible.

Neoliberalism is what we have experienced in the U.K. over the past decades, and it is up to the voter to decide whether it has worked or not.

In my view as a retired worker, it hasn’t. We have much poorer public services, a military that has been cut to the bone, a police force and prison service struggling to provide a decent service a public health system, a welfare system leaving millions in poverty etc.

However if I was a capitalist, I would say bring it on! What do I want with a public health service, a public education system, money spent on welfare etc. what I want is the least friction in my quest for profit. So I would certainly see the need for a good military and police force etc, and happy to see any tax I choose to pay go to that. I am lucky in as much as my capital can buy both power and influence, which I can use to ensure influence over governments.

The question then is - is democracy being hollowed out by this imbalance between the influence of capital and the power of the voter.

That should read “lack of power of the voter”

Not having read the article, my raw viewpoint is, if Capitalism is trying to 'resolve' anything, it's for its own benefit, and not that of the populace.
The sentence works more for me if you say 'destroy' rather than 'resolve'.

WhiteWave, please thank that Poster for giving us the link.

Maremia

WhiteWave, please thank that Poster for giving us the link.

😄

Although the sentance frames democracy as a “problem” and capitalism as a “solution”, it seems to be a tongue in cheek reverse of the more historically recent view that capitalism is the problem democracy tries to solve. A reversal of all most of us have grown up with.

Tongue in cheek (I think) it isn’t arguing that democracy should be "solved". It’s pointing out how capitalism acts in practice.

But I could be wrong!

I don't think that George Monbiot says anything tongue in cheek.

Capitalism (ie simply), means to me accumulation of wealth and power in the hands of a few individuals or corporations.

Democracy (ie simply) means to me a type of government where power is held by the people, allowing citizens to have a say in how their country is run, usually by way of letting government representatives via a free and fair election. To me, democracy necessarily includes respect for human rights, freedom of expression, an independent judiciary and the holding of periodic, fair elections, to ensure leaders are held accountable to the public.

I was not born into wealth or power. I have been a grateful recipient of free healthcare, free education, equal rights for women and a government vote, none of which were available to earlier generations of women born in my circumstances. I am biased by birth towards democracy not capitalism even I have been able to accrue capital by way of owning my own home and I managed to make (not huge, I'm not rich!) savings as a result of my career, achievable only by way of my free state education. However I do not seek to increase or preserve my capital at the expense of undermining democracy.

Simply put, there does appear to be a tension between democracy and capitalism. Those such as myself, (i.e. not born inherited property wealth or capital and needing state education and funded healthcare) can only gain when the minority who have benefitted from capitalism are willing to share more equally. It is easy to understand their perspective however. They are humans, also with self interest, so understandably are more likely to be biased towards preserving their capital and power.

Thus put very simply- yes I do think that democracy can be seen as a problem to capitalists. Democracy seeks fair wages, strong public services, environmental protections, accessible free/affordable healthcare etc. All that has a financial cost to be met, usually by way of fair, proportional taxation. What is seen by the less wealthy as fair however may be seen as punitive and undermining wealth and capital accrued to date by the capitalists.

We see many ways around the world how capitalists therefore covertly and overtly seek to resolve that tension. Powerful capitalist interests attempting to influencing government, hollowing out of democratic process through lobbying, media controls and campaign contributions.

Thank you for addressing the question in such a direct and comprehensive way LemonJam.

Re your final paragraph. There are some among the very rich in this country asking to be taxed progressively. It is a bit of a drop in the ocean but good to see a second side to the reaction of those holding power through wealth.