Mr Trump Accuses Ukrainians of Not Being Grateful Enough.

Ukraine doesn't have a legitimate government!!! Oh the irony.

Putin will shilly and shally until Trump wants to wash his hands of the whole thing.I can’t really believe that European countries will get together and put their armies into Ukraine either.
It’s a depressing situation all round.

Now Putin is saying that he is not negotiating because Ukraine does not have a legitimate government.

That doesn’t sound optimistic.

Trump is clearly after money and minerals from Putin - that is what is behind this, nothing else. Shame on us if we let the victim be punished and the bully be rewarded. Outrageous - and then wait on Putin’s next target.

How do you reason with two unbalanced men, you can’t, they are surrounded by yes men.

Well Windmill, we can only wonder what hold Putin has over Chump? There's been speculation for years that when Donny was visiting Moscow to try and get hotels there -- many, many years before he'd even thought about what a good wheeze being Prez would be -- he got filmed in certain hotel rooms enjoying some spectacular, er, 'hospitality'.

WHY ELSE would he be getting a brown tongue cuddling up to a dictator gulity of war crimes and bumping off political opponents?

Meanwhile, Mum2Three states that she's "a supporter of Trump". WHAT? WHY?? How much more evidence do you need that he's a longtime fraud and liar, multiple bankrupt, draft dodger, and - just in his recent speeches and activities - an utterly classless despot?

You missed that clip of him, on the Apprentice set, saying to a crony when a blonde wiggled past "Let's go grab some pu**y, they love it"? You missed the C4 documentary, late 2015, when it was rumoured he might try to become President, they referred to his bullying activities in Daddy's property firm (trying to shift rent-fixed tenants) and had a lawyer who was involved in his Ivana divorce quoting her statement that he'd raped her?

You managed to overlook his encouragement of an armed revolution at the Capitol, and his persistent references ever since to the election he lost that was "stolen" (his legal teams launched over 60 legal challenges, including 3 in the Conservative Supreme Court, all but one dismissed for "lack of evidence")????

Back in 2016, when the 'Stormy' scandal broke, he made a series of statements in press conferences, and eventually admitted the whole saga -- but later when on trial, consistently denied it had happened, with the "fake news" mantra -- all OK with you?

In this term, when campaigning, the Ukraine War would be fixed "on day one" -- you have a special calendar, this IS November?!

He has claimed the Gaza ceasefire as a triumph, despite taking no action against Israel until the place resembles the cities in Nazi Germany in 1945, after repeated fire bombing raids, just bomb sites and broken shells of building. Some triumph?

He has resisted releasing the Epstein files, despite campaigning on the promise that he would, claiming "Democrat hoax" and/or "fake news" . . .though if he wasn't involved, there'd be nothing to hide? All OK with you?

He campaigned on reducing grocery prices ("simple"), and seems quite shirty when asked why they keep rising?! His blustering nonsense about trade tariffs - warned against by just about every economist on the planet -- has caused damage to American consumers just as predicted.

He has dropped out of global warming treaties, and reversed sensible policies trying to limit ecological damage -- all OK with you, no kids to inherit a damaged planet?

A good example of his attitude is the promise to not affect the White House, within days, that East Wing was demolished, to be replaced with a hugely expensive monument to a tacky fraud, resembling a gold toilet.

He is a blundering narcissist, bombastic, and supremely thin-skinned, taking revenge on policial oppnents and even those in his own party, should they pose legit queries about his policy failings. He's done immense damage on the world stage, with his blunderings with tariffs, and assessments of his ability place him very near the bottom of a list of 45 Presidents (& that includes some real clunkers gone by).

So, just WHAT is it you like? That homage to hairspray? Calling female journalists "Piggy" if they ask tricky questions? DO tell?!

Let’s get realistic Russian military losses in Ukraine so far are over 500,000 dead and probably double that injured, that is more than US casualties in WW2 . Ukraine casualties about half that.

Whatever government is in power in the US, they did not want to get involved, NATO membership dragged them in. Europe is a toothless tiger that has run down its military, expecting the US to protect them. However much we want Ukraine to be independant the UK is not willing to fight alongside them nor are any other country in Europe or the US.

Our lack of decisive action means Ukraine cannot now win, the US does not want to continue arms supply, Europe is incapable

Putin looks back on the years of Communist Russia and wants to go back to that time. Ukraine is likely just the beginning if he isn’t stopped. His mate Trump will try to assist - he would like to do the same with Canada and Greenland. They ‘get’ each other. The rest of Europe they couldn’t care less about, they think it is weak and disunited. China would support Russia if it came to the pinch.

I am going to get shot down here BUT while not in the least a fan of Trump, he can see that:
- this is not a "right is on their side issue" Russia has the bigger stick
- this war can go on for many years, that the Ukranian people deserve peace
- the economics are not there for Ukraine to win, and he does not want the US to be bailing out any bigger post-war recovery
- that there are significant reports of desertions
- that the regions that are suggested as being given up and those that were in an internal war with Kiev for many years, and possibly provoked the invasion - they even held an referendum about returning to Russia
- that if Ukraine joins NATO, it will drag us all into a European war (WW III)
- that by his brokering any sort of peace, he is giving both sides a face saving way of doing so
- that is seems that Putin is ramping up, as before civilian casualties seemed to be only a by-product of the war, whereas now the strikes seem indiscriminate

knspol

Trump is either a great admirer of Putin or else he is afraid of him or just a coward and a fool. Putin is playing a game with him and he's winning. Why has Trump suddenly turned on Zelensky yet again? Or is it all a game and Trump actually has a plan, I doubt this!!

Trump is afraid of Russia because he believes that Putin is crazy enough to push the nuclear button.

I’ll be honest I think Putin is crazy enough to do just that, compared to a nuclear exchange Ukraine is small fry, and of little economic significance to the US, compared to WW3

Trump is either a great admirer of Putin or else he is afraid of him or just a coward and a fool. Putin is playing a game with him and he's winning. Why has Trump suddenly turned on Zelensky yet again? Or is it all a game and Trump actually has a plan, I doubt this!!

Wyllow3

It is arguable that Russia has rights to the Crimea historically , but not to the Dombass.

But Ronib, we have to look at the "now", not allegations of what individuals might have done to each there in the past. I'm sure there was nastiness on both sides going back, but actual giving up Ukrainian territory is another matter altogether.

and it not just any old territory, either. Its control over the ports where the Ukrainians load up cereals for export, and the land itself one of the "breadbaskets" of the Ukraine.

No it’s not arguable… The USSR (now Russia) GAVE THE CRIMEA to Ukraine in 1954!
Putin is trying to get back all the territory ( and more) that they willingly parted with a few decades back! He - like Trump - is trying to alter history and ‘MAKE, in his eyes, RUSSIA GREAT AGAIN’!p

Grannynannywanny

I’ve just seen Trump’s speech during the Thanksgiving ceremony to pardon the 2 turkeys today. He said if he had his way he’d have named the turkeys Chuck and Nancy and he wouldn’t have pardoned them, not even if Melania said it would be a nice thing to do.

He then rambled off script and spoke about the crime rate in Chicago. He described the mayor as a loser and the governor as a big fat slob!

Trump is an utterly vile excuse for a man. He doesn’t even attempt to hide it.

He is both! And obviously Smileless2012 is a MAGA IDIOT!

Trump has no idea what ‘gratitude’ is. He never says thank you to others (unless it gains him something) and would NEVER admit he’s wrong… I do wonder what ‘hold’ Putin has on him? Or have they just made an agreement to carve up Ukraine to their mutual benefit?
He is ignorant, and uneducated (apparently his father paid someone to take his exams) but surely even he knows who really started this war?? So why does he keep siding with Putin?

a loser and ...... a big fat slob takes one to know one.

I’ve just seen Trump’s speech during the Thanksgiving ceremony to pardon the 2 turkeys today. He said if he had his way he’d have named the turkeys Chuck and Nancy and he wouldn’t have pardoned them, not even if Melania said it would be a nice thing to do.

He then rambled off script and spoke about the crime rate in Chicago. He described the mayor as a loser and the governor as a big fat slob!

Trump is an utterly vile excuse for a man. He doesn’t even attempt to hide it.

Applegran

I have read that Putin has something compromising on Trump from Trump's visits to Moscow before he became president. I don't know either way but it does look as if Trump is predisposed to follow Putin's wishes a lot more often than not.
Maybe others will know more about this than I do.

There isn’t any evidence but it’s the only thing that explains why Trump is so very pro Russia.

I agree Shell but what's even more worrying is Trump doesn't seem to care either.

I can't think Putin cares what the west thinks or says

I think it is so sad that someone as powerful as Trump can be so blinkered and egotistical. To think that USA used to be a great ally and friend and could be relied upon in times of great need. I appreciate there is a monetary cost and Europe and UK have let things slip but to allow Russia to do what it wants is completely foolhardy. I feel so bad for the Ukranians and Putin really must not get all that he wants. He is another bully just like DT and there is more to their 'relationship' than we all know.

Two big ego’s by two narcisstic creepy men. Russia invaded Ukraine and demand gratitude for it.

ronib

Does anyone remember reading reports of sustained killings by Ukrainians of Russians living legally in the now disputed territories before the war started?

What if Putin was trying to regulate and reclaim territories previously Russian to stop the slaughter? We have such unreliable information streamed to us daily that we fall all too easily to whatever the news media wants us to believe. We have erased memories of why Putin started this war and there were reasons given at the time.

But isn’t it accepted that this was a result of Russian Grey Men sent into the region to create a narrative on the orders of Putin?Also consider the published Epstein files where ,in June 2018, he states that he passed on information on Trump to the Russians via Vitaly Churkin….

Witzend

IMO Trump admires Putin - he’s the sort of dictator he himself would love to be.
(I do sometimes wonder whether he’s a reincarnation of Henry VIII….)

You could well be right. There are lots of similarities....

I cannot recommend highly enough the BBC Radio 4 Reith Lectures which started today and are highly relevant to this thread. Really interesting and well argued and puts the present in the context of history. Today's lecture was recognisable and paints a very worrying picture - as an example, Americans who have studied fascism are leaving the US. The speaker promises that the next lecture is more optimistic and offers a better way ahead.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00729d9

The Tangerine Toddler, a wanna be King, Dictator and to be worshipped. He gives me the shivers