The Budget

I'm not against looking at the burden on employers NI wise, but I do sometimes think that the problems they face, which are many and considerable, are blamed out of proportion on the NI debate. there are so many other factors.

Frankly in theory the £20.000 start is truly nice in an idealistic world, FGT, but not realistic as the cut in tax income would yet again hit poorer people worst.

To produce a realistic plan for going ahead - thats really only a little part of what a government needs to lay out for the future if it really is promoting a massive change in direction, we need far, far more detail.

I remain very, very concerned at Reform's pretence (not from all, but many) that climate change just isn't happening and we therefore do not need to spend money boosting renewables and recycling and all the other things that might make a difference - but cost money.

I was quite amused to read about people's free’ shares in building societies which became banks. My Northern Rock shares went from very highly valued to absolutely worthless within a matter of days 😆

FriedGreenTomatoes2

^What I did notice is that other parties criticising the Labour Party have not actually put forward a credible set of alternatives for the difficult economic situation we are in.^

Reform have ideas Wyllow so you’re wrong to suggest they just ‘carp’. I like their idea of raising the Personal Allowance from the £12,600 threshold (which as Liam Halligan hasxsaid introduces fiscal drag - we all pay tax, even on low incomes, far too soon) by raising it to £20,000. Their idea is that poorer people (me to some extent compared to others on here) will spend more into the economy on say new boots and a new television (ours is 17 years old) - whereas the more well off squirrel it away in savings accounts so could be taxed more.

Apologies if I’ve not explained that very well, I probably shouldn’t attempt posts on N&P this early in a morning!

Nigel Farage recently said that his tax proposals which included the £20,000 personal allowance were not financially viable and called them aspirations. Did you miss that?

“AI Overview
Nigel Farage has stated his tax proposals are "aspirations" because they are not currently realistic, given the state of the UK economy. He has backtracked on the £90bn tax cut pledge, explaining that substantial cuts are not feasible until public finances are more stable and a Reform government has implemented measures to improve the economy and control spending.”

It's time they looked more deep into the Disabaility Car scheme. I know they have now stopped the option to contribute to purchasing 'luxury' cars but I do think they should look seriously into who really is entitled to this scheme. There are many who def don't. Such a waste of resoures.

^ Frankly in theory the £20.000 start is truly nice in an idealistic world, FGT, but not realistic as the cut in tax income would yet again hit poorer people worst.^

If we could get rid of this ‘taxes fund spending’ mindset it would make budget discussions much easier,(and might even dispel the dreadful attitudes often displayed towards benefit claimants).

Income tax is not the only tax. If allowances were raised for those on low incomes the extra money would be spent. Tax would then be collected via VAT instead.

Of course, raising the allowances should be balanced by increasing taxation of the ‘squirrelers’ (the wealthy)

Icandoit

It's time they looked more deep into the Disabaility Car scheme. I know they have now stopped the option to contribute to purchasing 'luxury' cars but I do think they should look seriously into who really is entitled to this scheme. There are many who def don't. Such a waste of resoures.

I dont know much about the scheme at all. who is getting it (ie under what grounds) who dont need it?

Please dont forget what are called "hidden disabilities
I am very fit and go to the gym but my Mental Health problems means I am fearful of and have been unable to use public transport for a very very long time. it terrified me getting on a bus and "not being able to get back home", ditto going th places I dont know.

My car feels a safe haven like a little bit of home going out with me.

So do be careful of whom you are referring to?

Allira

We still have our Abbey National, now Santander, free shares, Rosie51.
I should add up the dividends over the years.

So have I! The returns have never been very good £17.50 last dividend. I seem to remember that we got a £250 lump sum. I bought a couple of watercolours by a less known ‘Glasgow Boy’ Scottish artist with mine which have shown a better return.
I’ve never been keen on owning shares.

The budget us clearly aimed at keeping the bond markets happy to keep borrowing costs down and to placate Labour backbenchers (and the Party membership) to stave off another rebellion or leadership challenge. It has landed well for them but at the cost of higher taxes, no incentives for growth and the credible risk of having to raise taxes near the General Election to balance the books. Fat chance of that so they'll have to borrow massively then.

I have just watched a mother of three 'interviewed', reading from a prepared script,about the increase in benefits. Apparently it doesn't go far enough; she works part-time but there is no incentive for her to work more, (and earn more) because it would be of no financial benefit to her.
Says it all.

Well, it doesnt say it all -*she may say that*, but there are many more who willl carry on working and be really grateful they dont have to worry as much about food or other necessities!

You really are painting yet again the picture of the "drag on society" but not the genuine caring mums and dads

Income tax is not the only tax. If allowances were raised for those on low incomes the extra money would be spent. Tax would then be collected via VAT instead

Exactly what Reform UK say MaizieD.

I think Tory & Labour churning out the same old ideas makes way for a Party offering to do ‘something differently’. Zia Yusuf talks a lot of sense when interviewed I think. He’s always calm, polite and measured.

I was for giving Labour (Starmer) a shot at this but I’m so disappointed I’ve given up on him and his Cabinet. He isxweak in many ways his backbenchers know this and are in a feisty rebellious mood which he tries to placate to keep them on side but he comes across as a ditherer, trying to please everyone. It can’t be done, he needs to grasp the reins tighter and lead is party.

I don’t think he can and I don’t think he’ll last past May next year.

I’m supporting Reform UK now (again).
Sorry Sir Keir, you have disappointed me once too often.

I can totally understand why you enjoy flying overseas instead of grasping the domestic nettle.

MaizieD

Well, we do have a dilemma, don't we? We are turning so anti immigration and racist that no-one will want to come and work here. And many former immigrants who do, especially the skilled ones are reportedly leaving for countries that don't hate them so much,

Thanks to the post war baby boom our population is heavily skewed towards the elderly, who will need support from upcoming generations.

But hey, the elderly aren't terribly keen on the idea that their potential future home grown supporters should grow up in a secure and reasonably healthy environment should they happen, through no fault of their own, to be over the acceptable quota of children born to the less well off.

There are some shocking posts on this thread.

Well said. Seems lots of people are angry about their fellow citizens, for a range of reasons, nice bit of division going on in the country. All very depressing.

eazybee

I have just watched a mother of three 'interviewed', reading from a prepared script,about the increase in benefits. Apparently it doesn't go far enough; she works part-time but there is no incentive for her to work more, (and earn more) because it would be of no financial benefit to her.
Says it all.

People don’t break system; systems shape people.

If a system keeps producing behaviour that looks like “playing it,” that’s a sign the system is designed in a way that rewards or forces that behaviour. When people are struggling, they adapt in whatever way allows them to cope.

If we don’t like the outcomes, the solution isn’t to blame the people under pressure, it’s to fix the incentives and structures that steer behaviour in the first place.

Many people will assume they don't do this, but we all do, all the time.

MaizieD

I was quite amused to read about people's free’ shares in building societies which became banks. My Northern Rock shares went from very highly valued to absolutely worthless within a matter of days 😆

Oh dear!
I've only got Santander ones, had free Barclays shares too (were from Woolwich Building Society) but I sold those.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

foxie48

I think some would rather see children from poorer families further stigmatised by measures that would single them out from their peers. I find this persistent idea that children live in poverty because their parents are feckless a sign that many older people don't appreciate the costs faced by young families especially the cost of housing, childcare and food. Children are essential to our society they should not be considered a luxury.

many older people don't appreciate the costs faced by young families especially the cost of housing, childcare and food.

I think many of us do understand from when we were in that position.

Allira

foxie48

I think some would rather see children from poorer families further stigmatised by measures that would single them out from their peers. I find this persistent idea that children live in poverty because their parents are feckless a sign that many older people don't appreciate the costs faced by young families especially the cost of housing, childcare and food. Children are essential to our society they should not be considered a luxury.

many older people don't appreciate the costs faced by young families especially the cost of housing, childcare and food.

I think many of us do understand from when we were in that position.

Can I repeat: People don’t break systems; systems shape people. They make a rational adaption to incentives. All humans behave this way. The only difference is you are not obliged to use certain systems in order to survive.

When a system says "do it this way and you get that" and it's something you need you adapt to the system. It sounds as if you don't have these needs but it's just the same when it's something you want. "Humans optimise their behaviour by whatever the system measures, not necessarily by what the system intended." (Goodhart's Law). Those that build systems know this.

Please stop blaming those at the mercy of their poverty and government systems. You will be doing exactly the same. Want a sought after concert ticket? Why decide to go early to be as near as you can to the front of the queue? Because you know their system is first come first served and tickets are limited. You would be acting on exactly the same human instincts as the person claiming benefits. We all do.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

"People don’t break system; systems shape people."
[clap]

Allira The situation is certainly not the same as when I was newly married with my first child. The relationship between salaries and house prices has increased hugely. In 1975 my ex husbands annual salary was approximately 2/3rds of the value of the house we bought. I was able to make a comparison in today's values, and now the salary would be 1/7th of the value of that house. We were able to pay the mortgage without a second salary so I had the choice to continue working or stay at home. I chose the latte, no childcare costs and no need for a second car. Nowadays we would not have been able to save the deposit for that house, let alone pay the mortgage on that one salary. We didn't have a lot of money but we never struggled to pay a bill either and if we had stayed in that house until now, it would be worth £330K more than we paid for it and we'd probably have lived mortgage free for the last 30 years or more! Many of us "boomers" have not faced the same difficulties that many young families face today.

Benefits should be a safety net and not a lifestyle choice.

Choosing to work limited hours as working more would mean losing a percentage of your benefits is a growing mindset within some communities, and even extended families.

Allira The situation is certainly not the same as when I was newly married with my first child.

Your circumstances were not the same as everyone's circumstances and certainly not the same as ours.

So do not presume.
Our mortgage was 2/3 of DH's salary when our children were young because of the area we had to move to for work. My boring evening job helped pay for other essentials.

I'm glad most of you on here didn't have to struggle like some of us did but your reality was not everyone's.

Strange, isn't it, that those who might have an inkling of what life might be like to struggle are told off , yet those who have no clue think they own the moral high ground

Smug or patronising?
Both, probably. Add faux empathy.

Jane43

FriedGreenTomatoes2

What I did notice is that other parties criticising the Labour Party have not actually put forward a credible set of alternatives for the difficult economic situation we are in.

Reform have ideas Wyllow so you’re wrong to suggest they just ‘carp’. I like their idea of raising the Personal Allowance from the £12,600 threshold (which as Liam Halligan hasxsaid introduces fiscal drag - we all pay tax, even on low incomes, far too soon) by raising it to £20,000. Their idea is that poorer people (me to some extent compared to others on here) will spend more into the economy on say new boots and a new television (ours is 17 years old) - whereas the more well off squirrel it away in savings accounts so could be taxed more.

Apologies if I’ve not explained that very well, I probably shouldn’t attempt posts on N&P this early in a morning!

Nigel Farage recently said that his tax proposals which included the £20,000 personal allowance were not financially viable and called them aspirations. Did you miss that?

“AI Overview
Nigel Farage has stated his tax proposals are "aspirations" because they are not currently realistic, given the state of the UK economy. He has backtracked on the £90bn tax cut pledge, explaining that substantial cuts are not feasible until public finances are more stable and a Reform government has implemented measures to improve the economy and control spending.”

Anyone not in Government have"aspirations" wouldn't you say. Labour had plenty , and reneged on them all. So really no different.

"Many of us "boomers" have not faced the same difficulties that many young families face today."

See above Allira I have not presumed anything, just stated my experience, which I know is shared by many of my contemporaries. First husband was a police officer and we were both from working class families so we had no leg up on the housing ladder. However, the cost of housing, whether owned or rented is a huge issue in this country, much more than it was in the 70's and that is causing huge problems for our young, especially if they don't have access to help from parents. This is creating a huge divide in society which is unhealthy and extremely unfair.

I vividly remember my grandmother saying how difficult it must be for the younger generation to purchase a house. This was in the late 80s. Anecdotal evidence but it certainly wasn't easy for us. We lived in a barely furnished house for 5 years or so, we just couldn't afford to buy anything but the necessities.

Some years later in the early 90s our mortgage doubled overnight. No exaggeration, it doubled. Life was not easy.

As for this budget, I think it's the millennials who have the biggest issue. Middle income young adults who have worked hard will end up paying. Nurses and teachers ending up paying top tax rate. And who knows how long they'll have to work until pension age. And will there even be a state pension by then?

But this government was voted in so we have to put up, shut up and hope for the best.

I do wish they were as grown up as so many said at the time.

No fridges, no washing machines, no phones, no floor coverings. One set of clothes and another for ‘best’. Newspaper wadded into the soles of shoes to cover holes. Never quite enough food to eat.. Life in the 1950s for many of us. So don’t make me vomit talking about poverty now.