Tommy Robinson’s ‘put Christ back into Christmas’ message"

At the conclusion of my words about my husband at his funeral, I said and all shall be well, all is well.

The service was led by a close friend who happens to be a vicar. She’s an inspirational person, whose faith shines. I’m relieved she is more accepting of non perfect examples of people who identify as Christian’s than some posters

Oh well, I did get to explain dropping the last lines. It is a wonderful poem, but only one I've appreciated when I've got older.

It was your use of ‘things’ rather than ‘thing’ that eazybee was criticising.

What an eye opener this thread has been…

easybee - if I am quoting the last section of the last part of the 4 quartets only, I generally miss out the

"When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one."

As they refer to elements of the symbolism used in the whole of the 4 Quartets which the listener/reader cannot be aware of when just hearing the end.

So I finish the quote with

*And all shall be well
All manner of thing shall be well*

It is a famous quote from the nun and anchoress Mother Julien of Norwich and I feel a more suitable ending to the section that precedes it as in

A condition of complete simplicity
(*Costing not less than everything*)

(ps, are there rules about having to quote whole poems in GN? 🧐

anyway, its one of the top poems ever written imo.

And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

Please check your accuracy when quoting.

Oreo

I don’t know what Quakers believe other than being rather silent in meetings and refusing to fight in any army even to protect their own country.Am sure there must be more.
Believing that Christ rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven is at the core of Christianity isn’t it.Smileless2012 seems to know a lot about her faith from this thread and others, so much so that I did wonder if she were a Vicar.Quakers, Buddhists, and anyone else including Humanists try to live a good life but it doesn’t make them a Christian.

This is incorrect information, Oreo Quakers have and do take up arms in war time. Our peace testimony is very complex what was done at the end of WW2

" Quakers, specifically their relief organizations American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) and Friends Service Council (FSC), jointly received the 1947 Nobel Peace Prize for their extensive humanitarian work during and after World War II, providing aid to victims, refugees, and prisoners of war across Europe and Asia, recognising their long history of peace activism and service.

Please check your facts before alleging things.

Far from that, Smileless, but you know as well as I do that the bible as a whole contains many contradictions, can be extremely bloodthirsty as regards enemies, quite extraordinary as regards the book of Revelations (full of curious symbolism of end of the world which in parts contradicts what Jesus is recorded as saying about peace and so on)

and contains a Creationist explanation for the start of everything which most now take issue with.

One can find one of the most beautiful poetic recognition of the value of compassionate love in 1 Corinthians 13 of course, and the Song of Solomon is a wonderful poetic sexual book:

Parts of the bible are full of pretty horrific bloodshed.

What we find is that people/whole churches tend to pick out the bits that prove what they believe (although passages like 1Corinthians 13 transcend all hatred and division).

The bible is full of symbolism, so I think different people take it more or less literally.

But to me it's not the only religious text of value. It's very valuable for example to learn aspects of Buddhism like their strong central stance on Compassionate Love of all beings (probably the key meditation). The Hindu book, The Upanishads, is worth reading, again, its stance on acceptance and Love despite tough situations.

The Catholic poet TS Eliot wrote a long poem in 4 parts called "The 4 Quartets". although a dedicated Catholic, the poem draws on other traditions like the Tao Te Ching.

A wonderful resource, and an amazingly powerful ending after looking at the trials and troubles of life, the sadnesses and the joys.

It ends thus:

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.

Quick now, here, now, always—
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)

And all shall be well and
All manner of things shall be well.....

Are Mormons considered to be Chritian, does anyone know? They call themselves the Church of Christ and the Later Day Saints.

I don’t know what Quakers believe other than being rather silent in meetings and refusing to fight in any army even to protect their own country.Am sure there must be more.
Believing that Christ rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven is at the core of Christianity isn’t it.Smileless2012 seems to know a lot about her faith from this thread and others, so much so that I did wonder if she were a Vicar.Quakers, Buddhists, and anyone else including Humanists try to live a good life but it doesn’t make them a Christian.

Are you saying that what the Bible teaches us isn't valid Wyllow?

fancythat

The "outsiders welcome" bit, I agree is ridiculous.
Said really, probably, by someone who themselves doesnt go to church that often!

I'm an outsiders welcome person as is rather obvious and I go to Quaker Meeting for Worship every Sunday and also go to local interfaith meetings and we worship jointly every so often with the adjoining C of E.

We have no Nicene creed and have not have since Quakers started in 1652, at a time when non conformist churches of different kinds were also breaking away from the C of E.

Our values are based firmly in the Christian traditiON although we welcome wisdom or thoughtful contributions from other ones.

I consider my beliefs as valid as others do theirs who worship in the Nicene tradition.

You are right Oreo in that Smileless knows what she is talking about, but it appears its own particular brand of Christianity being offered as "The Truth, and only that is the Truth. I respect that.

She is free to practice in the way of worship that has meaning and authority for her:

This does not make it the only valid one.

Oreo

There are certain things to believe in any faith that makes you an adherent to that particular faith and with Christianity I think that Smileless2012 really knows what she’s talking about.
Those who waffle about just being good in life, well that’s just fine but it doesn’t make you a Christian or a Jew or Muslim, since we’re being pedantic about it.

So you think Christians all believe exactly the same thing? Why dont non Catholics believe the Pope is infallible? Why does the CofE have female priests? Why do some denominations marry same sex partners or divorcees? Why is Mary venerated in Catholicism in a way she isn't in other denominations? Why do some Christians believe statues are idolatry? Why don't some Christians believe what Jesus said at the Last Supper.

Anyone's personal view is just that. Even Popes haven't always agreed.

Christianity

fancythat

^The bible was written by men, ^

Yes, but the Bible points out very clearly[I think in Tim chapter 2?] that the Bible is inspired by God.

Still written, edited and translated by men. Why don't we have just one version if the bible, why do we have contradictions in the bible? You can be a Christian and question things, in fact maybe you should.

Thank you Oreo.

There are certain things to believe in any faith that makes you an adherent to that particular faith and with Christianity I think that Smileless2012 really knows what she’s talking about.
Those who waffle about just being good in life, well that’s just fine but it doesn’t make you a Christian or a Jew or Muslim, since we’re being pedantic about it.

The bible was written by men,

Yes, but the Bible points out very clearly[I think in Tim chapter 2?] that the Bible is inspired by God.

The "outsiders welcome" bit, I agree is ridiculous.
Said really, probably, by someone who themselves doesnt go to church that often!

putting Christ back into Christmas, really??

I can understand that bit a bit.

There was a time, not sure it is happening quite as much as it was, that commercially, christmas cakes are winter cakes or something, town and city decorations have lights but nothing much else of the Bible story, Christmas fayres renamed as winter fayres. Etc.

Smileless2012

Once again theworriedwell I am not the one who is saying so.

You certainly appear to be saying it.

Once again theworriedwell I am not the one who is saying so.

Smileless2012

What do you mean there are those here who would say if you are not with me, you are against me that is what Jesus said in Matthew chap. 12 v 20.

Well He has a bit more authority on the subject than any of us.

Smileless2012

I'm not judging theworriedwell. It's the Bible, not any Christian denomination that tells us of the virgin birth and Jesus' resurrection.

As for your accusation that I am judging people of other faiths, I have done no such thing.

The bible was written by men, edited by men, translated many times by men. There are contradictions in the bible. It is not for you to tell people if they qualify as a Christian.

* Iam64* and foxie48 Shibboleths and othering - the very things that Jesus' spoke against. The outsiders in society were the ones he sought out, and the barriers to inclusion were what he broke down.

He himself never asked his disciples whether they believed that his was a miraculous birth - making the acceptance of that a part of the ritual of initiation was a later addition.

When his disciples were hungry as they walked with him on through the fields on the Sabbath, they picked grains of wheat in the field. some Pharisees (sticklers for obeying the letter of the law) saw them and accused them of doing what was unlawful on the Sabbath.

Jesus replied that when King David was fleeing Saul and hungry, he ate the "showbread" which had previously been on display beside the Tabernacle and was normally only lawful food for priests. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" He said.

Testing the "Shibboleth" in the Bible refers to the story in Judges 12 . After a battle Gileadites used the word "shibboleth" (meaning stream/ear of grain) as a linguistic test to identify fleeing Ephraimites trying to cross the river Jordan. They couldn't pronounce the "sh" sound and said "sibboleth" instead, leading to their capture and death; it highlights identity through language and has become a metaphor for any word or practice distinguishing an in-group from an out-group, often used in church discussions about unity versus division into "us" and "them".

What do you mean there are those here who would say if you are not with me, you are against me that is what Jesus said in Matthew chap. 12 v 20.

Following the teachings of Jesus, how could anyone disagree. People are free to follow whichever path they choose. Doing the opposite in his name see how long that will last.