John Smyth, Church Scandal, Channel 4 9pm

The documentary was a indepth study in the family dynamics. Especially episode 2.

I didn't want to watch it at first, but my husband was at a prestigious boarding school in the 70s, less than 50 miles from Winchester College, so we watched it together out of interest.

It was stated that the wife was a mere 16 year old when she was swept off her feet by Smyth who had just finished at Cambridge. After marrying him she quickly realised something was wrong, yet she went on to have all those children. As stated earlier, I believe she enjoyed the lifestyle too much to do anything.

The saddest bit was the daughter behind her veil walking up the aisle on her father's arm feeling sick about his deeds. Heartbreaking, and heartbroken, on what should have been her happiest day.

I am quite amazed at how many people here think it would have been easy for Ann Smyth to ‘just tell someone’ and that everything would have been stopped. There are so many other cases (eg Cyril Smith) where establishment figures have been allowed to continue to abuse children. And corporal punishment was not even illegal - there was so much that nobody wanted to talk about.

The fact is that this was widely reported to the police and other members of the clergy. This man was a powerful establishment figure and his bullying would not have stopped at those closest to him. He was brazen and manipulative.

Even if his wife had left him, could she have retained custody of her children? Would they actually have become more not less vulnerable? I doubt her lifestyle was pleasant, in spite of the financial trappings. But I really doubt that she had the power to change things against the weight of the establishment who would have covered up for her husband.

I am not denying the bravery of others here who have left abusive relationships with little more than the clothes they were wearing, and I was in an abusive relationship for a very long time too. But I was not supported when I did have a courage to report it to my GP or when the police came to our house as a result of a report by a member of the public. And my husband had nothing like the social and political power that this man enjoyed. But he told lots of lies about me, and it was easier for people to believe that I was the problem.

Cabbie21

On reflection I think the wife was totally brainwashed by the husband and the interpretation of marriage and the subservient role of women at that time in their particular understanding of Christian marriage.
I recognise this from my parents’ marriage at that time, though my Father was an utterly good man. I’m sure if he had done anything wrong my mother would have spoken out though.

I haven’t watched the programmes.
I’m not defending Ann Smythe and as we are mostly women and mothers in this discussion, it’s inevitable we will question her role in this horrific abuse.

Cabbie’s post puts it well imo. The awful Smythe selected the perfect wife for a controlling abuser like him. Stockholm syndrome played its part. It reminds me of the time when domestic abuse was dismissed as ‘a domestic’. Women still return many times before leaving. Ann Smythe wasn’t even in the category to question what he was doing.
Stress - not defending

On reflection I think the wife was totally brainwashed by the husband and the interpretation of marriage and the subservient role of women at that time in their particular understanding of Christian marriage.
I recognise this from my parents’ marriage at that time, though my Father was an utterly good man. I’m sure if he had done anything wrong my mother would have spoken out though.

Oh I didn’t realise there was ‘three’ girls my mistake perhaps she had removed herself from the family when she was old enough to wipe them out of her life

BlueBelle

MartavTaurus I googled the other daughter wondering why she didn’t take part but she has died of breast cancer

Yes. That was Nicola, the youngest daughter, who died in her early 40s. She was not in the documentary, or even mentioned I believe.

The other girls were Fiona and Caroline. Only one of them spoke with the mother (and brother) in the final scene, so I wondered why one of them didn't take part.

MartavTaurus

Well, the wife did at least say she felt ashamed. So she certainly should.

She could have done something. Instead she chose to appear serene and adopt a decidedly untroubled attitude towards her husband's behaviour.

I'm not sure her son snd daughter were totally convinced. And I wonder what the other absent daughter might have added too.

I didn't watch it, although I have seen one programme about this a while ago. One daughter was interviewed on the local news. She appears to have disliked her father but there was nothing that a child could have done. They must be damaged too, even if not physically abused.

The mother, whilst not assisting in the abuse, was complicit because she allowed this to happen to so many boys, including her own son. What kind of woman, mother does that?

MartavTaurus I googled the other daughter wondering why she didn’t take part but she has died of breast cancer

Well I feel no better about the mother, having watched the second part I see her as an accomplice who allowed it to happen She could /should have done more even if only for her own children Her little girls had to stay upstairs because they were girls !! The son was beaten albeit not to the extent of the other boys but nevertheless beaten and she turned a blind eye, what mother wipes all her husbands horrific deeds out and just smiles
I did not see fear in her eyes but complete submission with no possibility to challenge him she must have been the perfect wife for him one who accepted all he did with a smile and a handhold
I am so sorry that man had a heart attack and just like Saville he conveniently avoided any payback !!!

Horrendous stuff, of course the two children forgave her she’s an old lady saying she was weak and sorry and should have acted differently which is easy to say after it’s all over
He was an horrendous abuser and she and the church allowed it to go unchallenged

But I don’t see how she could now be punished now whilst he has escaped, so she must live with her guilt which she seemed resigned to do

Why would I watch it, what good will that serve? I gather from these posts what was done to the victims, his wife is almost as bad, what mother would see her son whipped, one who put herself and lifestyle first. People die trying to save a child, she stood by and treated the wounds, a truly evil pair what a monster,she should be in prison I don't care if she is 100 and acting confused, she is very good at playing a part after all, too late now all the damage has been done.

Well, the wife did at least say she felt ashamed. So she certainly should.

She could have done something. Instead she chose to appear serene and adopt a decidedly untroubled attitude towards her husband's behaviour.

I'm not sure her son snd daughter were totally convinced. And I wonder what the other absent daughter might have added too.

Her kids are being accepting of her reasons for not speaking out because she is their Mum and an elderly lady now. I believe though, deep down they know full well that she could have and should have spoken out all those years ago.

In that lengthy part of the prog where the journalist was following Smyth and his wife she looked as guilty as hell to me and gave a good impression of a confused old lady.

I agree that she was protecting her lifestyle.

The CofE covered this up, so did his wife. The CofE try to protect their reputation, she tried to protect her lifestyle.

Smyths' wife should be arrested for complicity. She allowed this to happen, she could have alerted the police, left him or gone directly to the press. She did nothing. She is far from innocent. Listening to her was shocking!

I was careful to say that it was Smyth who carried out the abuse, and I am not blaming Ann for that. But she could have reported it, or told the boys to tell their parents or the police. As I remember it (I have seen both episodes) there was nothing about being 'born again' in the documentary. In the photos of Ann Smyth as a younger woman, and the video of her when her husband was 'doorstepped' by a reporter she wore a beatific smile, even when he was asked why he beat young men until they bled.

I do understand domestic abuse and the fear that it can instil; but I can't understand a mother standing back when her children are being hurt. This was not corporal punishment - it was torture, with an obvious sexual element. She could have acted to stop it, and she should have done. The only mitigation offered by the programme was that she believed in the sanctity of marriage and that her role as a wife was to be supportive of her husband. Fair enough - but what about supporting her children? Horrible.

The man was a horrendous abuser but she the wife aided and abetted You get your kids and you go

In the short clip I saw she said she would be asked to dress and put ointment on the wounds which she did in silence without asking any questions or making any comment.

People are capable of the most banal behaviour if there is nothing there to mitigate it.

I find it impossible to both understand but even judge this woman- she did not collude or initiate the abuse, yet we now consider her silence staggering and rightly so.

For abuse to continue, only silence is needed. Lessons to be learned indeed.

His wife cleaned up the blood she was totally involved

It's true there was more physical punishment from parents years ago but these boys were not even his own In the evangelical church it's very black and white and controlling at times I think maybe all the fuss about
being born again justifies a lot of evil they talk like your saved and therefore go to heaven Id rather think you don't go to heaven if your evil and continue being evil Id rather it I did believe think it was people who did all they could to make life better for other people who got accepted by God I think the evangelical church is a strange cult like group

Iam64

I’m not excusing worriedwell. I’m reminding us who the abuser was and so often is. We see women as more culpable, question how Ann Smythe could collude - all valid questions. Why did Smythe abuse young men and boys so horrifically. Why did none of the men who became aware not take effective action

I think we can blame her for what she didn't do without it meaning we don't blame any of the men.

It isn’t true Cabbie21 that the Saville investigations overwhelmed and prevented Smythe being investigated. The Makin review found the Church actively covered up and suppressed a 1982 report detailing the abuse.

From further reading it is my understanding that by the time this abuse reached the police, they were overwhelmed with the workload of investigating allegations of abuse by Jimmy Saville, and other historical abusers. Smyth’s victims were reluctant to reveal their identities at that time, so police did not have a lot to go on.
As a result of the Saville abuse, the whole police systems changed so that it was not left piecemeal in the hands of separate police forces. Safeguarding regulations came into play too after that. It is hard to realise how different things were back then.
I expect to hear more from John Smyth’s family at 9 pm.

I’m not excusing worriedwell. I’m reminding us who the abuser was and so often is. We see women as more culpable, question how Ann Smythe could collude - all valid questions. Why did Smythe abuse young men and boys so horrifically. Why did none of the men who became aware not take effective action

Iam64

Thanks OldFrill
It is a common response to incest type abuse to blame the mother. Ann Smyth is in a different position yet her involvement is raising much discussion for reasons I understand

The outstanding question remains. Why are so many men sexually attracted to children, why do authority figures cover it up or fail to follow safeguarding procedures.

In what universe is beating men/boys bare bottoms till they bleed acceptable

She saw children bleeding from beatings, she looked the other way. There is no excuse.

Thanks OldFrill
It is a common response to incest type abuse to blame the mother. Ann Smyth is in a different position yet her involvement is raising much discussion for reasons I understand

The outstanding question remains. Why are so many men sexually attracted to children, why do authority figures cover it up or fail to follow safeguarding procedures.

In what universe is beating men/boys bare bottoms till they bleed acceptable