John Smyth, Church Scandal, Channel 4 9pm

*Smyth's reign of abuse

The religious instruction that underpinned the Iwerne Camps and Smyth's abuse was based on Muscular Christianity, this is mentioned in the documentary. Proponents of Muscular Christianity didn't agree on how much corporal punishment should play a role in the religion, Smyth took it to an extreme. Corporal punishment was not uncommon in the 70s/80s.
John Smyth was charismatic, a barrister and QC, he was a master manipulator and abuser. His wife didn't stand a chance.
It isn't Ann Smyth that the victims see as complicit, it's the officials in the Church that knew about the Ruston report and covered up Smyth's abuse - shipping him out to Africa. Noone knows exactly who read the Rushton report (how widely it was distributed), one would imagine anyone at working at Iwerne during Smyth's reign of a use would have been aware of the subsequent report. Justin Welby was a Dormitory Officer during the years Smyth was abusing boys at Iwerne Camp.

I know there was corporal punishment in those days but it was not this type of corporal punishment and was usually done in front of the class or school to make a statement not in a shed at the bottom of the garden it was often referred to as ‘6 of the best’ not hours of massive corporal punishment
… and we can’t underestimate those poor children in Africa
who would have no voice either and have never been approached for their stories or have they ?

Whatever excuse you make she was part of it It ll be interesting to see if any more of her role comes out tonight

I’m not disagreeing with the outrage expressed here towards Mrs Smythe. It’s incomprehensible to me, as it is to other posters, that a woman, wife, mother could be involved in the abuse by treating wounds and failing to seek help, ideally from police, but also from her Church companions

We need to remember that corporal punishment was viewed through a different lens. For reasons beyond my comprehension, head teachers, form tutors, parents, residential care workers were allowed to beat the bottoms of children. Why the obvious sexual elements were denied is a mystery.

Mrs S, supported by her children says fear kept her compliant. I fear it was worse, that it didn’t seem like abuse to her. I’m not excusing thst

A refuge would have accepted her as they did with us maybe as someone said above she couldn't bare to leave a nice home

She maybe thought her husband was born again the evangelical teaching and God was forgiving him because he was saved These kids would have had so much better lifes if they hadn't been conditioned into believing a born again is special

And me too Takethat7 left with three young children with a big bag of toys, a bag of clothes, some saucepans and the goldfish.

I don't think saying you loved your husband is a reasonable excuse she should have been sickened at what he was doing any normal person would be She only had to leave and report him I say that as someone who left an abusive husband and left the family home with a three year old

A question: (without having seen episode two).

Could the wife have possibly been acting in that way, and sweeping it under the carpet, because she enjoyed the lifestyle - the big country house, the holidays and all the trappings etc.?

I don't understand the wife either. Smyth beat his (and her) own son! Where was her maternal instinct? Even if she could find ways to accept his torture of other young people, how could she allow that to happen to her own child? I just can't come to terms with that at all
Doodledog I agree wholeheartedly I cannot equate how this woman could let her own child be beaten .. herself I can understand but her child and then the continuation of other young boys to the extent that she was cleaning up bad, bad wounds I can not accept and like you I believe she should be prosecuted
I would die before anyone touched my children and before anyone says but she was in a difficult situation you don’t know how you would behave in the situation I have been in an abusive relationship and if any of my children had been touched I would never in a million years stay or cover up for him ….never

It's so far out of my comfort zone to understand what went on. Totally beyond anyone's comprehension.

I don't understand how he was allowed free access in and out of Winchester College?

I don't get how there must have been opportunities to report him, yet the school didn't?

How come someone was giving those pupils permission to go to the house?

Justin Welby was at the summer camps, so surely he would have known what was happening?

And why were rich boys from wealthy families targeted? That questions society as a whole. It's very disturbing.

At that time, teachers caught abusing children were moved on to another school, where the same things were often repeated. That was wrong too, but this story goes beyond covering things up.

I've not seen the the second episode, so I'll be interested to hear more about the wife.

Welby reported it to the police but didn't follow it up wasn't he implicated in the whole thing

His wife enabled horrible abuse and took part in cleaning up blood why has she not been arrested

Yes it’s important that you watch it to see the extent of cruelty one trusted person can inflict on an innocent child.
Those of us with young children no matter how many years ago will now wonder did anything like this happen to my child.
When this became news my husband gently talked to our sons about it but we had always taught them if anything happened they didn’t like they must tell us, how could these poor children do that, they were protected by the church and religion. You will be shocked when you watch the programme but it’s not voyeurism it’s a straight forward warning.
Incidentally my husband went to boardings school and hated every minute, the masters were evil and had favourites amongst the boys, luckily my dear husband was not in this group and ran away from school until his parents gave up and removed him, a happy day for him.

I don't understand the wife either. Smyth beat his (and her) own son! Where was her maternal instinct? Even if she could find ways to accept his torture of other young people, how could she allow that to happen to her own child? I just can't come to terms with that at all.

Of course it was Smyth who was to blame, but he couldn't have maintained his veneer of respectability without Ann's compliance. I'm not saying she was responsible for what happened, but she enabled it, and allowed it to continue for as long as it did.

The interview with her children at the end of episode 2 was strange. The family clearly have communication issues - this wouldn't have happened otherwise - but even allowing for that it was very controlled and scratched the surface of a massive subject. The children both forgave her, and said she was Smyth's first victim, but there was nothing in the documentary to back that up. They will obviously have a better idea about that, of course, and I'm not suggesting that their theory is untrue; but the family discussion seemed very 'staged' to me, particularly the touching of hands at the end, as though the case is closed. It isn't for the huge number of victims, is it?

I can't begin to imagine how I would feel if I found out that my son had been treated like that, and not only had it happened in the home of someone in a position of responsibility in the church, but that his wife had tended to the victims' wounds. I would be homicidal. It is not for the family to forgive Ann. Yes, there is a lot for them to come to terms with, and yes, the son can decide if he can forgive his own abuse, but the tone of the ending of the programme seemed to suggest that it is all over. Can't she be prosecuted for aiding and abetting abuse? I think she should be.

Allsorts

I want to know how his wife did not just go to the police and shop him, the evidence was there. If anyone did that to mine I would not be responsible for my actions to him, I would take the consequences. As for Welby, he cannot be not a man of God to sit by because it was uncomfortable, whilst such evil carried on, an absolute disgrace. How can he make peace with God after that? If he were my father I would be ashamed. I cannot begin to imagine how his victims must feel I hope with all my heart they have had happiness.

Didn't Welby report him to the police or maybe told someone to report him? I haven't seen this documentary but I thought it had been reported.

Surely his wife knew and what about adults responsible for those children didn't they notice,?

I don't think I'll be able to watch it. Nothing makes me angrier than these religious perverts, and the evil people that cover it up.

Yes, his wife is an enigma. She knew what he was doing yet never said anything to anyone and so enabled him.

I wondered why it took so long to report, but the emotional shame seems to be what does it.

We had a scout master who picked on the wrong child, who promptly told his parent who called the police. It turned out though that one of the assistant leaders, now aged 22, was a victim himself!!! Now even if he could not bring himself to report, we all wondered why he stayed around

I’m not defending Welby, but he knew it had been passed to the police, who failed to act sufficiently.

The level of violence inflicted on those boys was immense.
There was certainly a culture of moving people on when this happened, but the magnitude of abuse perpetrated in this case was way off the usual scale.
Welby denied knowing about the severity of the abuse, but he also said he was too busy (?) to act on his findings when he took office, and that is inexcusable.

From AI Justin Welby has stated that he first became aware of the specific, serious allegations of abuse against John Smyth in August 2013, shortly after he became Archbishop of Canterbury. The findings of an independent review, however, concluded that it was "unlikely" he would have had no knowledge of concerns regarding Smyth in the 1980s

I don’t think Welby knew anything until much much later, so others need to take responsibility too. Unfortunately those most guilty are now dead, so it’s too late to punish them.

The important people now are the surviving victims, and making sure that everyone is safe, in every context but especially in voluntary organisations.

It’s interesting how easily blame is being apportioned to his wife. She has apologised to the victims, expressed shame that she followed her husband’s instructions to tend to wounds. She learned to placate, to do as he wanted in order to avoid his anger. As a Christian wife, she saw her role as one of obedience in marriage. No doubt he found the right wife then groomed and controlled her.

Her son and daughter describe their mother as his first victim. They both talk of the power their father extorted over others outside, never mind inside their family.

I’m not minimising this man’s wickedness. I want the focus on him, not his wife. She will also have been aware that powerful people in the Church were aware yet colluded

I want to know how his wife did not just go to the police and shop him, the evidence was there. If anyone did that to mine I would not be responsible for my actions to him, I would take the consequences. As for Welby, he cannot be not a man of God to sit by because it was uncomfortable, whilst such evil carried on, an absolute disgrace. How can he make peace with God after that? If he were my father I would be ashamed. I cannot begin to imagine how his victims must feel I hope with all my heart they have had happiness.