The next doctors’ strike

Welsh doctors have accepted the deal offered by the Welsh NHS by 83%.

Do no harm? Well they won't harm anyone if they're not there will they? Or are they now slaves?

alisonsmith4

Whatever happened to “Do no harm?” It is a privilege to heal the sick. If the doctors are that interested in money then go and be an accountant. (Speaking as the mother of an NHS doctor.)

Speaking as the mother of an NHS doctor I completely disagree. She has the right to a decent life too.

So enjoy our doctors emigrating to Australia in greater numbers and the NHS limping on by poaching doctors from far poorer countries.

It wasn’t that long ago that striking doctors tried to make out it wasn’t about pay at all, more about ‘patient safety’

There is no pretence now though. They are openly demanding yet more money despite being awarded a very generous increase earlier this year.
I believe they got just under 30% for three years.

How much private sector workers have been that lucky?

Whatever happened to “Do no harm?” It is a privilege to heal the sick. If the doctors are that interested in money then go and be an accountant. (Speaking as the mother of an NHS doctor.)

.

Mollygo

These 'people' are not ones who should ever go into medicine.

They obviously have zero interest in patient care and so are totally unsuitable for a life of dedication and thinking of others wellbeing rather than themselves
.

For all that work and aptitude with 4 A* A levels in STEM subjects this is the reward.

UK “resident” doctors (junior doctors) start on around £39k and can reach £70k+ during training, after 5–6 years at university plus at least 2 years foundation training, and they typically graduate with £70k–£80k+ of student loan debt (often never fully repaid under the current system).[1][2][3][4][5]

## Pay levels (England, 2024–25 ballpark)

Basic pay before banding, nights, weekends and on‑call supplements:

| Training stage (junior doctor) | Typical basic annual pay |
|--------------------------------|--------------------------|
| Foundation Year 1 (FY1) | ~£38,800[2] |
| Foundation Year 2 (FY2) | ~£44,400[2] |
| Core / early specialty (CT1–2/ST1–2) | ~£52,700[2][6] |
| Higher specialty (ST3–5) | ~£65,000[2][6] |
| Senior specialty (ST6–8) | ~£74,000[2][6] |

Actual take‑home is higher once you add extra hours, nights and weekends; an ST3–4 with rota supplements can approach ~£90k–£100k total before tax in some posts.[6][7]

## How long they spend in university and training

- **University (medical school)**:
- Standard undergrad medicine: 5 years (often 6 with an intercalated degree).[3][8]
- Graduate‑entry medicine: typically 4 years.[3]

- *Postgraduate training path (minimum):*
- Foundation Programme: 2 years (FY1–FY2).[8][3]
- Specialty training:
- GP: usually 3 further years after foundation (so ~10–11 years total from starting medical school).[8][3]
- Hospital specialties: 5–8+ further years (so roughly 13–15+ years from starting medical school to CCT/consultant).[3][8]

## Typical debt on graduation

- Analyses using pre‑2012 fee levels already found *tuition‑fee debt alone ~£40k*, with full loans (fees + maintenance) modelling *initial debt up to ~£82k (2014 prices)* for students living away from home.[4]
- More recent modelling for the £9,250‑fee era estimates *typical medical graduate debts around £64k–£82k*, depending on living at home, location and maintenance borrowing.[5]
- Because of interest and the 30‑year write‑off, most UK doctors are *unlikely ever to fully repay* their medical school loans; many will have a balance written off after 30 years of repayments.[4][5]

[1](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-pay-scales-for-eligible-healthcare-jobs/national-pay-scales-for-eligible-healthcare-occupation-codes)
[2](https://procalculator.co.uk/junior-doctor-salary-calculator/)
[3](https://blog.medlinkstudents.com/how-many-years-to-become-a-doctor/)
[4](https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e007335)
[5](https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/practice-personal-finance/medical-students-unlikely-to-repay-student-debts-during-working-life/)
[6](https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/exploring-the-earnings-of-nhs-doctors-in-england-2025-update)
[7](https://www.pulsejobs.com/news/resident-junior-doctors-pay-scales-in-england/)
[8](https://www.learndirect.com/blog/what-qualifications-do-i-need-to-become-a-doctor)
[9](https://www.nhsemployers.org/system/files/2025-02/Pay-and-Conditions-Circular-(MD)-5-2024-R2.pdf)
[10](https://www.bmj.com/careers/article/the-complete-guide-to-nhs-pay-for-doctors)

IOMGran

None. And then to be held to emotional ransom as they seem to be expected to work for love only. They have rent and lives too you know.

So do other professions but they don’t get their pay

None. And then to be held to emotional ransom as they seem to be expected to work for love only. They have rent and lives too you know.

eazybee

I gather it is lack of strategic planning that is the basic cause of the discontent, with regard to training opportunities which doctors need to progress. This discontent has been hijacked by the militant members of the Union.
However, 60% have voted to support this particular strike at a crucial point of the year, therefore although I have some understanding, I have little sympathy.

easybee is right. My DocSis explained it to me last night.
What is happening is that the resident doctors (ex junior doctors) work all out, accumulating huge debts,

but when it comes to the next step, one step up the ladder, the jobs are not actually there at all enough.

Yes, we need more doctors, but there are not the training posts that follow the resident doctor stage

I dont think I could strike at this time of year, but you have to ask

what is the point for them, as I said, to do years of training and accumulate huge debts as the training isn a lot longer than in other degrees, then to be faced with a rubbish future of lack of that next step

The government have agreed to all their demands except full pay restoration. Other vital professions also suffered lack of pay restoration but are not holding the public to ransom. It is pure greed. Professor Winston resigned from the BMA because of their actions.

Doctors get a great deal more than £35,000 a year.

This may be of interest.

Part of the problem was the 4 year pay freeze so even tho' they had a pay rise it hasn't kept up with inflation. They have so much responsibility on their hands but the job is the job and they shouldn't have gone into it if all they wanted was big bucks. The NHS gets used for training and once received then some will go into the private sector where they make their money. The taxes and pension payments which are compulsary and alot comes out of their paypacket before they get it. However as a 70 year old who is still having to work to survive and I put stress on that word their timing stinks but then I suppose there will never be a good time. There's always an issue everywhere, life has become very difficult.

I do have empathy for them and medical students who faced similar dilemmas getting training contracts.

However, I do wish they’d not chosen winter and coming up to flu season, to have their strike.

I don’t thinks it’s greed, it’s more like despair.

The contracts are also different depending on where you work eg the Welsh contract is very different to the English one and what is counted as pensionable pay is much less generous. Part of the pay agreement in Wales is about improving that aspect as currently it's certainly not the generous scheme that most people think doctors have!

Aveline

I do know what its like and was like for decades past- we had doctors and nurses and AHPs in the family.

Did your families doctors get trained on a 'Firm'? Because that doesn't happen any more. The new contracts are nothing like the old ones either. I think you are somewhat out of date.

foxie48

Aveline

Foxie48 I was looking further back than that

The current training issues have escalated in the last decade as has the decline in actual pay. My daughter started her medical training in 2012 and for each year that she's been training her salary has decreased in actual terms. She's had to take breaks in training because of being unwilling to live in a different part of the country to her partner. She spent a year travelling for 3 hours each day on top of 12 hour shifts and nights, it wasn't much of a life tbh and she was also studying for exams. She was permanently exhausted so she took a year out and locumed the following year she considered continuing with that as her pay and working conditions were infinitely better as she could pick and choose her shifts and because of her level of training her hourly rate was much higher. People can talk about greedy doctors but tbh the level of job satisfaction, pay and low morale in the NHS is a real problem and retention of doctors is an issue that can't be ignored. Fwiw. If my daughter got a consultancy post in Ireland, her salary would increase three fold!

I am sorry, I know the pain as my daughter is also a doctor. That's why the media constantly briefing against resident doctors winds m up massively.

Aveline

Many others have been affected by frozen pay and below inflationary rises.

That's the classic argument for the race to the bottom.

Mamie

Aveline

Was it not the BMA who originally restricted training places? It's a workforce planning issue. Resident doctors who have jobs have had large pay rises and have large contributions to their pensions by their employers in a way that others can only dream of

It started with previous governments as a cost-saving exercise and came unstuck after Brexit. I can't source it officially, but one recent statistic found only 1 in 8 doctors had training places last year. Many are leaving for Australia and New Zealand.
So sad after all that investment.

No single individual "restricted" doctors' training places in the UK; successive governments have imposed and maintained caps on medical school and specialty training posts primarily to control NHS training costs, which exceed student fees by a factor of 3-4.[1][2][3]

## History of the Caps
Successive Conservative governments since the 1990s set quotas around 7,500 medical student places annually in England, temporarily lifting them during COVID (to over 10,000 in 2020-21) before reimposing limits amid staff shortages.[2][3][1]
Treasury fiscal policy drives this, with ministers like Robert Halfon (2023) enforcing fines on universities exceeding quotas and James Cleverly (2022) defending the system as non-expandable "at the flick of a switch."[3][1]

## Recent Developments
The 2025 Labour government under Wes Streeting prioritised UK graduates for specialty training and pledged 4,000 extra posts from 2026 to end BMA strikes, acknowledging "choked" recruitment but not fully scrapping caps. BMA campaigns for uncapped expansion to meet doctor shortages (e.g., 46,000 needed for EU average).[4][5][6][7][2]

[1](https://www.bbc.com/news/health-62594141)
[2](https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/2022/08/amid-nhs-staff-shortage-uk-reintroduces-cap-on-medical-students)
[3](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/26/capping-university-places-doctors-insanity/)
[4](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-prioritise-uk-medical-graduates-for-training-places)
[5](https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/international-doctors/studying-and-training-in-the-uk/bma-specialty-training-policy-faqs)
[6](https://www.healthcare-management.uk/government-improves-offer-resident-doctors-england)
[7](https://www.bmj.com/content/390/bmj.r1413)
[8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England))
[9](https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/workforce/government-offers-to-quadruple-specialty-training-posts-to-halt-bma-strike-action/)
[10](https://www.england.nhs.uk/blog/100-years-of-general-practice/)

Mamie

love0c

This is what happens when you give in to bullies. They always come back!!!!!

This is what happens when previous Governments fail to maintain doctors' rates of pay and encourage the immigration of doctors, rather than prioritising its own students who have been trained in UK medical schools.

Exactly this Mamie. Our kids are treated badly, no security so they can't put down roots, no continuity of training and exams that are compulsory for progression that they have to pay for £1K a sitting, no name but a few things. The overseas doctors are also treated badly in the NHS.

I do know what its like and was like for decades past- we had doctors and nurses and AHPs in the family.

Aveline

Foxie48 I was looking further back than that

The current training issues have escalated in the last decade as has the decline in actual pay. My daughter started her medical training in 2012 and for each year that she's been training her salary has decreased in actual terms. She's had to take breaks in training because of being unwilling to live in a different part of the country to her partner. She spent a year travelling for 3 hours each day on top of 12 hour shifts and nights, it wasn't much of a life tbh and she was also studying for exams. She was permanently exhausted so she took a year out and locumed the following year she considered continuing with that as her pay and working conditions were infinitely better as she could pick and choose her shifts and because of her level of training her hourly rate was much higher. People can talk about greedy doctors but tbh the level of job satisfaction, pay and low morale in the NHS is a real problem and retention of doctors is an issue that can't be ignored. Fwiw. If my daughter got a consultancy post in Ireland, her salary would increase three fold!

Foxie48 I was looking further back than that

As for cheap options in medicine - that’s backfired massively as claims for medical negligence are soaring.