Venezuela air attack

We do have a court of law that cases like this can be presented and tried.

The ICJ.

It has many cases come before it.

Iran v USA

South Africa v Israel

Ukraine v Russia

Myanmar’s v Gambia

Too many to list really.

For individual criminal leaders we have the ICC sitting in The Hague.

This is where Maduro should be tried.

The ICC issues warrants for wanted criminals. There are currently a number of warrants issued for various criminal leaders.

This is what due process and the International Rule of Law should look like.

Am totally sure that no leader in any country should have the power to take a country over militarily and abduct the leader when that country has not committed an act of aggression against them. Whether Maduro was a dictator who was trafficking drugs is beside the point, there are many leaders who could be described as dictators who should be doing jail time. So where do we do we draw the line? According to Trump that would very much depend on whether a country has oil or other precious resources. And Iran has plenty of oil.

Albeit there would be many that would welcome Putin going to prison and out of government..

How would that work?

Ronib 12.47 - Why can't any leader face charges in a foreign court if charges are at least documented and presented? 25 pages in this case of Venezuela's president and his wife. Presumably a team of defence lawyers will act?'

ANY leader in ANY foreign country? Ronib, are you suggesting Starmer should be able to illegally abduct another foreign leader, as Trump abducted Maduro?

That is Starmer should be able to legally adduct another country's leader, who has not engaged in hostilities against the UK but the UK may be unhappy with. E.g Putin- without any effort to enlist the support of the UK public or their elected representatives in HoC, and without even the semblance of a stated plan how Russia would then be governed?

After all it would also be possible to confect and document charges, present them to Putin and he would no doubt have defence lawyers as you state.

Why can’t any leader face charges in a foreign court if charges are at least documented and presented? 25 pages in this case of Venezuela’s president and his wife. Presumably a team of defence lawyers will act ?

LJ, I agree

Oreo

fancythat

Is Starmer nowhere on the issue. Sitting on a fence?

Waiting to be told what to say by his advisors? Not a Starmer fan but diplomacy matters in a case like this.

But 3 days of sitting on a fence?

If this were proper war, things move on far quicker than that.

I don’t think America is going to be stopped by any words from Europe or the Uk. Oreo

fancythat Mon 05-Jan-26 11:58:50-
"I am surprised that a lot of people who may be left wing voters, dont seem that bothered by Trump[of all people, someone who can do no right just about always] literally physically removing a Leader out of the Country. Baffles me".

Left, centre of right wing, it is baffling. Whitewavemark2 has started a post "now we are beginning to understand why the international rule of law is so important" which crosses over?

Unless the Trump adminstration hugely bungles the case of Maduro's indictment- there will probably be a conviction and prison sentence. Many, many Venezuelans may be pleased about that.

However to illegally abduct a leader from another country that has engaged in no hostilities against the US, without even the appearance of an effort to enlist the support of the American public or their elected representatives in Congress, and without even the semblance of a stated plan how Venezuela will now be governed - is surreal.

It represents a new moment in US presidential power and the Law.

fancythat

Is Starmer nowhere on the issue. Sitting on a fence?

Waiting to be told what to say by his advisors? Not a Starmer fan but diplomacy matters in a case like this.

tbh I'm totally confused by your post Fancythat can you be a bit more explicit, please.

I think Putin is far too wily an operator to do that. I thought you meant if he killed Zelensky, in which case there would be war. If Zelensky were captured I think there would be the same approach as with Venezuela, to avoid war if at all possible, at least initially.

Exact same sort as Trump did

fancythat

If Putin were to remove Zelensky, the world would go into meltdown.

Trump removes Venezuela Leader.
Do nothing.

Why sort of removal are you talking about?

If Putin were to remove Zelensky, the world would go into meltdown.

Trump removes Venezuela Leader.
Do nothing.

I am surprised that a lot of people who may be left wing voters, dont seem that bothered by Trump[of all people, someone who can do no right just about always] literally physically removing a Leader out of the Country.

Baffles me.

Keeping your powder dry.

fancythat

Is Starmer nowhere on the issue. Sitting on a fence?

Given that Britain has no power to make the main players in this issue take any notice of our opinion (not in a positive way, anyway), the best thing Starmer can do for now is say as little as possible.
We literally cannot afford to antagonize them, so if that is deemed as "sitting on a fence", then seems a good idea to me, for the time being at least.

Maremia

Balance of power WhiteWave. Confirms what some of us feel, that Trump is a Russian ally.

Yes I do get that, and thinking about it, I suspect that Putin, who has/had strong relationships with Venezuela both trading and military will be almost certainly ceded this to Trump.

Is Starmer nowhere on the issue. Sitting on a fence?

Whitewavemark2

So, listening to TRIPUSA.

Scaramucci is of the opinion, that this attack has been cooperated with Russia, that the Venezuelan military knew of the proposed attack, and also that the VP Rodriguez knew of the proposed attack!

Trump is also sending a message to China - stay out of my sphere of influence.

I will try to make further sense of that , as it is clear as mud to me atm.

Wouldnt surprise me.

3rd time I have read/heard of things being not quite as first appeared.

petra

Maremia

Who 'holds' that debt?

Japan is the top foreign holder of US dept.

Japan is the top foreign holder of U.S. debt, consistently holding over $1 trillion in Treasury securities, followed by the United Kingdom and then Mainland China, though China's holdings have decreased, with data from late 2024/early 2025 showing Japan at over $1.1 trillion, the UK at around $720 billion, and China at roughly $759 billion

Ironic for Japan and the Uk, given the level of debt we are both in.

In relation to concerns about the physical safety of Ukraine and Europe, what do you think?

Better or worse than a Chinese ally?