Is there a solution to this growing problem?

Witzend

Calendargirl

Witzend

Only 2 days ago dh and I were on a bus where a young man who was refusing to pay, had been told by the driver to get off the bus. He stood right by the driver’s area, very loudly abusing him, while the driver maintained that he wasn’t moving until the bloke either paid or got off, and if he didn’t very soon, he’d be calling the police.
He did eventually take himself off.

Good for the bus driver.

Of course, it will be pointed out that you never know if the offender is carrying a knife…..

But why should these idiots get away with blatantly refusing to pay their due?

OTOH more than once I have seen some scruffy looking bloke whose means of payment was refused (no cash on our buses) then saying to the driver e.g. ‘Look mate, I’m only going for a couple of stops…’ and being waved on inside.

I dare say the drivers just can’t be bothered with the aggro if they decline.

That's got me thinking for the day then - ie just how does anyone pay for their busfare on a bus that deliberately refuses cash? Are people expected to pay from a smartphone? Do they accept credit and debit cards?

What are the mechanics of how one pays other than cash if cash is all one has? Do they think you're supposed to get back off the bus again and do without your bus ride? Serious question. I'm assuming they have to accept people paying with their debit/credit cards - if they're someone that doesn't pay for things with a smartphone?

I've not had to think about that for years - as I was 60 when I moved to Wales and started needing to take buses here - and I've just been paying by waving my pensioner card at them.
So how to pay only arises when I got back to England and up comes the "Why can't I use my pensioner buspass somewhere else in Britain?" debate (though I know it's not accepted the other side of the border and still havent gone into the ins and outs as to why it isnt). I just think "How odd" and resignedly pay (in cash).

I was verbally abused when I worked at the hospital. It’s horrible.

And it is the world, especially the ‘western world’ of so called ‘civilised’ and advanced nations. Not just the UK. When there is talk about the UK going downhill and being broken I think to myself, tell me a country in Europe, Australia, Canada etc and the USA that isn’t. The ones on the ‘up’ are China, Poland, Singapore - not the traditional ones.

TheWeirdoAgain60

As an ex-bus driver, I've been physically assaulted 3 times, one of which I was head-butted by a drunken moron who had recently been released from ''prison'', the ''police'' were utterly useless, one of which, while he didn't actually say it, made it very clear that as a woman bus driver, I should be driving prams, not busses.

Loads of times over the 2 years I was driving, I was spat at, kicked, punched, threatened with all kinds of stuff, various sexist, women-hating remarks, etc. I was groped and had vile sexual comments. Various bullies and scumbags.

Not just me, but other drivers, male and female. A trans driver, from male to female, had all kinds of freaks having a go at her.

I've worked in retail where an old woman in her 80s tried to actually mug me for my handbag as I was leaving the shop after my shift. In retail, restaurants and cafes, I've been physically assaulted and verbally abused and treated like filth by customers AND other staff.

The world is getting far worse.

That’s bloody awful. So very sorry and thank you for your service 😊

As an ex-bus driver, I've been physically assaulted 3 times, one of which I was head-butted by a drunken moron who had recently been released from ''prison'', the ''police'' were utterly useless, one of which, while he didn't actually say it, made it very clear that as a woman bus driver, I should be driving prams, not busses.

Loads of times over the 2 years I was driving, I was spat at, kicked, punched, threatened with all kinds of stuff, various sexist, women-hating remarks, etc. I was groped and had vile sexual comments. Various bullies and scumbags.

Not just me, but other drivers, male and female. A trans driver, from male to female, had all kinds of freaks having a go at her.

I've worked in retail where an old woman in her 80s tried to actually mug me for my handbag as I was leaving the shop after my shift. In retail, restaurants and cafes, I've been physically assaulted and verbally abused and treated like filth by customers AND other staff.

The world is getting far worse.

MaizieD I agree with your post of 09.12.26 👍

I take Witzend’s point, too, but it had me thinking about the difference between refusal to pay and refusal of payment. The first I would consider to be wrong on the part of the person who refused to pay, the second is surely wrong on the part of the service provider.

Though, if course, it also depends on how one views the bus service. Should it be a purely profit generating business or should it be a public service which contributes to the general ‘good’ of society, and so available to as many people as possible.

I would have commended the driver of the ‘no cash’ bus for his act of kindness. I think it’s very sad that the recipient of that kindness is suspected of being fraudulent. Is there no space for trust these days?

I think if they offer cash, but it’s a cashless bus, that is different to not trying to pay, full stop.

Not sure of the solution, however!

I suppose cashless has come about partly because of robberies of the cash?

I take your point too. But what is a passenger to do if they offer cash, but have no other means to pay? They’re not being dishonest, they’re being prevented from travelling by what seems to be an unfair system.

Cashless payments are encouraged on our local buses, but a minority do still use actual money.

Witzend

I take your point, but it’s still not right for upstanding, fee paying passengers.

And what if the couple of stops extends to a journey to the terminus?

Is the driver going to evict them then?

I don’t think it’s a deliberate thing either CariadAgain, but I do think that the societal pressure to conform to respectful behaviour towards others is disappearing.

Calendargirl

Witzend

Only 2 days ago dh and I were on a bus where a young man who was refusing to pay, had been told by the driver to get off the bus. He stood right by the driver’s area, very loudly abusing him, while the driver maintained that he wasn’t moving until the bloke either paid or got off, and if he didn’t very soon, he’d be calling the police.
He did eventually take himself off.

Good for the bus driver.

Of course, it will be pointed out that you never know if the offender is carrying a knife…..

But why should these idiots get away with blatantly refusing to pay their due?

OTOH more than once I have seen some scruffy looking bloke whose means of payment was refused (no cash on our buses) then saying to the driver e.g. ‘Look mate, I’m only going for a couple of stops…’ and being waved on inside.

I dare say the drivers just can’t be bothered with the aggro if they decline.

Casdon

MaizieD

So, I can understand why even normal hardworking people would think "If Society doesn't care about me - then why would I care about it?"

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable conclusion, *Cariad’.

I think that the greed of the wealthy is indulged by our economic system while everyone else falls further and further behind. There’s really not much evidence of our government caring about this.

Except that in the past people would have been far more inclined to find ways of helping each other, and peacefully lobbying for change, rather than threatening public servants and others in positions which are supporting them. Railing against the government of the moment or the system is one thing, turning on others who are just employees too is another.

I don't think it's a deliberate thing by any manner of means.

I think a lot of people wonder just how one could help other people that deserved it (ie not grifters just after what they could get). A lot of people have tried the "peacefully lobbying for change" and got nowhere. Yet I do see what Maizie says - and the rich just get richer and don't bother about the rest of us....eg what was that multi-million £ wedding recently for instance? That was obscene - when there's a lot of hardworking people (of themselves) just trying to pay their bills/get a mortgage/etc.

I don't think "reactions" are under peoples control necessarily either. I can recall a friend of mine telling me that I was basically like an "unexploded bomb" the first time unemployment hit me. It was such a shock and I know I was indeed extremely angry.....very very angry. I do remember thinking "Just how much are they going to push me?" when I got told I was made redundant a third time in pretty quick succession and thinking "They're pushing me further and further left to the extent if they do that to me just one more time they'll probably have pushed me so far that I might turn communist".

I definitely remember very well getting angrier and angrier with each succeeding spell of unemployment - and by the time the third time hit a hard core of internal anger/a capacity for ruthlessness had manifested and I don't think that has ever gone away since. It taught me "The only person who is really really bothered about me and my rights/my needs is me....as the government certainly doesn't give a darn for a start off". That was not funny trying to be "firm" - but not turn into "a hard person" - as I don't like hard people/am not used to that.

Unemployment isn't the only thing. Right now I can tell those who jobs are likely to fall victim to AI that "They (the government) should help you to figure out a way to get through that - eg job retraining or the like). But they won't....." - as I could see the type of work I'd trained for was basically starting to die an obvious death part way through my work lifetime and I looked round expectantly thinking "the Government must have realised this...I'm far from the only one in this position. I need to remain skilled/in work/etc and I'm prepared to retrain for instance - but I can't afford to cover any costs of that myself and have to carry on getting a salary throughout and I don't have the money to pay for retraining either". So I looked around and I looked around some more - looking for help/an escape route from what I saw looming and there was absolutely nothing. Cue for another layer of cynicism/fighting - as I then thought "Well all I can see to do then is toughen up some more/getting even more determined and absolutely dig my heels in and cling like a limpet to what I've got for as long as I can" and that's what I did. I witnessed some other people doing the same....and some of what I saw others do was quite a revelation to me. You know the score - I saw people kniving each other in the back (they tried that on me for one), I saw people pretending hard to be busy with darn all work to do (3 or 4 people clamouring for what is one person's worth of work and even overtime is a sight to behold as to just how slowly some people can work if they try).

That's no way to treat people.

MaizieD

^So, I can understand why even normal hardworking people would think "If Society doesn't care about me - then why would I care about it?"^

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable conclusion, *Cariad’.

I think that the greed of the wealthy is indulged by our economic system while everyone else falls further and further behind. There’s really not much evidence of our government caring about this.

Is it greedy to spend your spare cash on a larger house that you dont pay tax on rather than an investment you do pay tax on.

Because thats what we all do if we can.

MaizieD

^So, I can understand why even normal hardworking people would think "If Society doesn't care about me - then why would I care about it?"^

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable conclusion, *Cariad’.

I think that the greed of the wealthy is indulged by our economic system while everyone else falls further and further behind. There’s really not much evidence of our government caring about this.

Except that in the past people would have been far more inclined to find ways of helping each other, and peacefully lobbying for change, rather than threatening public servants and others in positions which are supporting them. Railing against the government of the moment or the system is one thing, turning on others who are just employees too is another.

So, I can understand why even normal hardworking people would think "If Society doesn't care about me - then why would I care about it?"

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable conclusion, *Cariad’.

I think that the greed of the wealthy is indulged by our economic system while everyone else falls further and further behind. There’s really not much evidence of our government caring about this.

Wyllow3

How does one change a Zeitgeist of greed that has such a grip on us - and I think produces only unhappiness for many...

I wouldnt say it's a zeitgeist of greed myself.

I was only being reminded earlier today - by an old thread on here - that there came a time a few years back of the Government cutting help with mortgages for the unemployed and they did/still should cover the interest part of peoples mortgages for however long was necessary until the claimant managed to get back in work again. But, as I recall, they decided to put a limit on what size of mortgages they would cover that interest on and put a limit on how long they would pay the interest for. They then went on, as I recall, to tell people to pay them back those mortgage interest payments subsequently (ie treat them as a loan instead of "covering your housing costs whilst unemployed").

I've had several periods of unemployment inflicted on me during the course of my worklife - to my surprise (as I'd never thought that would happen to me for a minute - as I was an office worker and I didn't think that happened to that sort of job etc). It was over a year in total I landed up on the dole queue for - but managed to survive because of the fact that the early 1980s paid all peoples rent for them/would have covered all my mortgage interest forever more and however much it was (and not called it a "loan to be repaid" !!), all my Council Tax was covered, as I recall I wasn't expected to pay my water bill then. It was not luxury living - but I managed on early 1980s level of benefits. Also, when I finally managed to buy a house after that - I had the mental security of knowing that, if unemployment had happened to me yet again - that my mortgage interest would basically be covered okay (even if that unemployment had gone on for years) and my home and house equity would both be safe (ie because I'd taken the precaution of making sure it was a repayment mortgage and not an endowment one).

Looking at the enormous amount that's been cut from peoples unemployment benefit since for anyone that gets thrown into that position = I can well understand any normal hard-working person such as myself thinking "If that's how they plan to treat me if it comes to it = then why do they think I should care about them (ie the government)?"

It is an odd idea to think one is expected to care about Society - when Society these days is quite prepared to treat even an honest/hard-working person that badly just because they'd become unemployed. Neither side of that two-way contract between Society and individuals seems to apply now after all those cuts. (Obviously I'm not excusing the sort of person that deliberately goes onto benefit and then deliberately has child/ren whilst in that position etc - I am just saying "What about a normal hardworking person though?").

So I can understand why even normal hardworking people would think "If Society doesn't care about me - then why would I care about it?"

You don’t hear about bank hold ups because there are so few banks, and if you find one, chances are they don’t carry much proper cash!

nanna8

Not just the UK. In hospitals here there is a ‘code grey’ announcement quite often, several times a day. What is the world coming to ? They used to have bank holdups years ago but not that often. Waste of time for the would be burglars now because no money around and I suppose that is one advantage of a cash free economy.

Not burglars thankfully unless you flaunt wealth but plenty are busy stealing cars , mobile phones, shoplifting and anything else that isnt nailed down.

"It was nothing to do with Blair's increased spending, it was private debt which caused the GFC, the 'easy credit' that you cited. The financial markets and institutions demonstrated that they were not to be trusted with deregulation, far from being responsible and rational operators they gambled heavily driven by the prospect of making big gains.

We have to realise that the financial markets and institutions have only one objective, increasing their wealth and the wealth of their clients and hanging onto as much of it as they possibly can. They really don't care if they destroy a country's economy in the process..."

Thats not what I said, Blairs increased spending was affordable until the crash, then the extra debt made it unaffordable and we have gradually sunk since then.

Businesses make profits thats their role in society, its up to governments to tax them properly, the same with private citizens, we all accumulate wealth, great and small, its government that decides how much we keep.

By all means tell polititians to change taxation but YOU cant tell Companies or any of us that we should pay more.

Not just the UK. In hospitals here there is a ‘code grey’ announcement quite often, several times a day. What is the world coming to ? They used to have bank holdups years ago but not that often. Waste of time for the would be burglars now because no money around and I suppose that is one advantage of a cash free economy.

For me it was the 2000s, deregulation, loads of money, easy credit, big bonuses, everyone knew it couldn't last and it all came crashing down. But we all wanted a piece of the action, some benefited most did not

^ The social spending increases introduced by Blair became increasingly unaffordable and borrowing increased and interest levels are crippling the economy.^

It was nothing to do with Blair's increased spending, it was private debt which caused the GFC, the 'easy credit' that you cited. The financial markets and institutions demonstrated that they were not to be trusted with deregulation, far from being responsible and rational operators they gambled heavily driven by the prospect of making big gains.

We have to realise that the financial markets and institutions have only one objective, increasing their wealth and the wealth of their clients and hanging onto as much of it as they possibly can. They really don't care if they destroy a country's economy in the process...

How does one change a Zeitgeist of greed that has such a grip on us - and I think produces only unhappiness for many...

“I'm thinking of an Ex who was that generation in the 80's that in London suddenly became crazy champagne drinkers as assets got sold off, the the money many one to individuals, not society as a whole? (he crashed, and wasn't the only one)”

For me it was the 2000s, deregulation, loads of money, easy credit, big bonuses, everyone knew it couldn't last and it all came crashing down. But we all wanted a piece of the action, some benefited most did not. The social spending increases introduced by Blair became increasingly unaffordable and borrowing increased and interest levels are crippling the economy.

Brexit made it worse then Covid and Ukraine increased the pain, digging ourselves out of this hole is not going to be easy

And angry and bitter to the haves/celebs/ you wanna be...? Take it out on ordinary people...