West Midlands Police Scandal

MayBee70

It is a lie to pretend that Maccabi fans have never gone out of their way to cause trouble. The end result ie the ban was the right one imo. If they had come here and caused trouble I'm sure that any protesters or muslims in the area would have been totally blamed for it.

And from the evidence we see now , protesters and Muslim men from that area would have been to blame for it!
Guildford built a misleading case for banning Maccabi fans by saying it was locals at risk when in fact it would have been the fans at risk.
He could now face a conduct probe despite retiring and quite rightly.
We need to believe the police, and particularly the Chief of any force and in this case we can’t which brings a shadow over every force in the country sadly.

I think we just need to understand the new rules.
Daily Mail - tells lies = very bad thing.
BBC and anyone else who is on the 'right side' tells lies = completely justified.
People need to understand the new morality.

Oreo 👏👏👏

Local members of the Muslim community in that area told the police they were going to arm themselves to go after Maccabi fans, and the police didn’t disclose that fact.Police say now that they used AI and SM to garner evidence about Maccabi fans in Amsterdam citing what Dutch police said, when in fact Dutch police said the football boot was on the other foot and it was local Muslim men who were sent to jail for vicious attacks on Israeli fans.The cited violent West Ham match never even took place.Need I go on?
There are only two reasons for anyone to continue to say that Guildford did the right thing, Pro Palestine supporters who don’t want supporters of an Israeli football club to be allowed here at any price and those who don’t enjoy being proved wrong about that decision.I suppose a third reason would be that people simply haven’t read fully about the facts and have only seen a minute or two on tv about it.
It was an absolute disgrace and he should have been sacked and not just to retire, but at least he has retired with everyone knowing that the whole thing was a lying cover up.

Time and time again, a member of the policing services takes the option of taking immediate retirement - with full pension - before they can be held to account.

Seems to happen every day.

It is a lie to pretend that Maccabi fans have never gone out of their way to cause trouble. The end result ie the ban was the right one imo. If they had come here and caused trouble I'm sure that any protesters or muslims in the area would have been totally blamed for it.

MayBee70 are you saying using lies to justify your action is OK?

No, not at all, but does that really justify using false/made up evidence? How about if somebody used false evidence against you or someone you cared about to 'bolster' their case? Either there was sufficient real evidence or there wasn't. I do suspect antisemitism and fear of violence against a 'Jewish' team played its part.

So you are also denying that Maccabi fans have a history of violence at football matches?

MayBee70

Allira

MayBee70

I still think he made the right decision. And I shall be emailing the MP for Perry Bar to support him.

Even though he used false information to make the decision?

Not all of the information was false. Are you saying that Maccabi fans have never caused trouble at away matches, ever?

When you have to 'gild the lily' to justify your stance, then your stance wasn't exactly 'rock solid' to begin with.

Allira

It's rather worrying when police rely on AI and Facebook for "evidence".

Absolutely!
I don't know if you're aware the Employment Tribunal judge in the case of Sandy Peggie against NHSFife used AI in his judgement, much which has been shown to be made up, including false legal precedents. The appeal is pending and his reputation is shot to pieces.

Allira

MayBee70

I still think he made the right decision. And I shall be emailing the MP for Perry Bar to support him.

Even though he used false information to make the decision?

Not all of the information was false. Are you saying that Maccabi fans have never caused trouble at away matches, ever?

I totally support English fans being banned if they cause trouble abroad, too. I knew of someone who only used to go to away games to have fights with people. They exist in all countries and the Maccabi fans have been notorious for it for ages.

I don’t know about Israeli fans in general. I do know that I’ve seen quite a lot of footage of dreadful behaviour by Maccabi fans specifically. They seem to have a pretty awful reputation for violence at home as well as away.

Basgetti

I’m torn. Banning Jewish football supporters en masse? Yes, wrong, obviously. (Though that isn’t what happened, tbf. Local Jewish fans had no problem attending.)
Banning Tel Aviv Maccabi fans with a strong history of violence? Not wrong.
It’s not clear cut.

Basgetti
The reason Guildford resigned is because the reasons given about the violence of Maccabi fans were untrue according to HM Inspector of Constabulary.

So who do we believe? HM Inspector of Constabulary or FB tales and AI?
I know who I would believe.
'A scathing report by Sir Andy Cooke, His Majesty’s chief inspector of constabulary, found the force had fabricated and retrofitted misleading intelligence, given false statements about Israeli fans, overstated claims of disorder abroad and failed to properly engage with the Jewish community'

'Officers wrongly claimed Maccabi fans had thrown people into a river, that 5,000 Dutch police were deployed at a fixture, and that hundreds of supporters had links to the IDF – none of which was supported by evidence.'

I’m torn. Banning Jewish football supporters en masse? Yes, wrong, obviously. (Though that isn’t what happened, tbf. Local Jewish fans had no problem attending.)
Banning Tel Aviv Maccabi fans with a strong history of violence? Not wrong.
It’s not clear cut.

I remember this, believed it was because there was proof that these fans were hooligans and the police wanted to protect the public. If this was all false then of course is only fair that heads should roll no matter how politically sensitive the situation is.
But I can easily understand why people were persuaded that there was a real threat.
There is no shame in being persuaded by the police, most of us have to put our trust in them, and here in London the Met is not much better.

MayBee70

I still think he made the right decision. And I shall be emailing the MP for Perry Bar to support him.

Even though he used false information to make the decision?

That doesn’t surprise me.

I still think he made the right decision. And I shall be emailing the MP for Perry Bar to support him.

Or on the shelf life of flour and cornflour thread?😜

It’s interesting how little traffic this thread is generating given the importance of the subject.

Perhaps they're all busy. 🙂

It’s interesting how little traffic this thread is generating given the importance of the subject.I realise that a lot of posters won’t enjoy being wrong about the decision made by the West Midlands police as they totally trusted their evidence and motives.I and some others never did and said so.And here we now are, vindicated in our views.What the West Midlands police did is worrying in the extreme, including their clumsy attempt to cover up and lying to Parliament and the Jewish community.

So glad he has gone. The more I read about it the more uneasy I got about the situation and was wanting him to do the decent thing and resign. It's a pity he was allowed to have his full police pension.
I didn't like the process of how he was chosen so hopefully the next one will be chosen by neutrals.

Allira

It's rather worrying when police rely on AI and Facebook for "evidence".

It’s a good get out, isn’t it 🤷‍♀️
Wasn’t me guv.🤬