Andrew Gwynne, Labour MP for Gorton and Denton is standing down because of ill health. Thus provoking a great deal of speculation as to who will stand in his place.

Iam64

Annie, yes as I said, I acknowledge the reasons given as valid. I voted and have supported Keir Starmer. I still feel this was the wrong decision. Burnham would have won Gorton, a constituency now likely to be lost by Labour. Burnham would bring many more positives to Westminster than any worries about his leadership ambitions

Keir is excellent internationally imo. He isn’t impressing on the home front. Even long term supporters like me are finding it difficult to defend his apparent inability to work effectively with back benchers and read the room (ie the electorate).

I’m in a so called red wall constituency. We have been one of those areas where our vote predicts the election. We have a good Labour mp. I won’t bore you with the feedback from constituents but I will say reform is very active and organised …..

Where are Reform getting all the money from for this campaigning? I’m sure it isn’t from people that want to make life better for the poor and working classes.

Galaxy

I know you weren't asking me, but I don't think it is a good idea for Labour to make decisions based on how that will impact Reform if you see what I mean.
The problem as I see it is too much reactive behaviour rather than a clear vision

I agree Galaxy.

Labour haven’t said they made this decision based on the possibility of Reform taking the mayoralty - that was my ‘pondering’ really.

Perhaps Labour have shown ‘clear vision’, which is that they want AB to continue the good work he’s doing as Manchester mayor.

Yes I was just pondering too

I’m in the pondering group, despite feeling strongly that blacking Burnham won’t improve the general negative views about Starmer.
I’m in Gtr Manchester and see Andy Burnham as a good mayor, a real asset to our area. I’d be sorry to see him leave. Yes, I fear Reform. My CLP is so called red wall. Reform is well coordinated and active here. Expressing concern about this decision on Burnham doesn’t mean I support any aspect of Reform MayBee

Whats depressing is, when you actually speak to people on the door canvassing, how little many know what Reforms policies actually are, and don't really actually even know what they are on immigration, except a vague feeling

"They will stop it and that will solve all the other problems" Scary.

I find it very scary speaking to the middle classes who are unable to understand how their experience of immigration might be different to others.

Galaxy

I find it very scary speaking to the middle classes who are unable to understand how their experience of immigration might be different to others.

Why scary. What do they do to you?

Because it demonstrates such a lack of understanding of other people's lives.
Scary in a similar way to the way Wyllow used that word.

Galaxy

I find it very scary speaking to the middle classes who are unable to understand how their experience of immigration might be different to others.

Well, I find it very scary living in an area where the very few non white people to be seen are either well liked shop keepers, takeaway staff and NHS yet it's Reform Central and 'immigrants are demonised despite the fact that these people's lives are not affected by them in any way negatively.

But of course that cuts both ways doesn’t it Galaxy. We all seek to blame people for our own situation who are not ‘like us’, it’s just that our perception of who is to blame varies. Castigating the middle classes, the majority of whom have risen from the working classes, or them castigating the working class or benefits claimants, or immigrants, serves no purpose.

I didn't start the castigated I responded to it.

Castigating even.

It’s like a ballet dance.

Wyllow3

Whats depressing is, when you actually speak to people on the door canvassing, how little many know what Reforms policies actually are, and don't really actually even know what they are on immigration, except a vague feeling

"They will stop it and that will solve all the other problems" Scary.

Are you out canvassing Wyllow3 ?

The majority of the country is working class ( I know defining that isn’t what it was) and they want a country that works for them.
Labour used to fit the bill and now sadly it doesn’t.

So the majority in the country voted for 14 year Tory government and certainly didn’t want Corbyn ?

Nobody wanted Corbyn apart from the comparatively few very leftwing.
Most people wanted a change from the Conservatives which is why Labour won last time.
It’s incredibly doubtful after 18 months of mistakes they will win again at the next GE.

Funnily enough Oreo, at one point in time a higher percentage of the electorate were saying they would vote for Corbyn than are now saying they would vote for Reform. The electorate is very fickle.

From a poll?
I never met one single voter from any political affiliation that thought he would be any good. And he tanked Labour in the election.

Yes, not just one poll though, polling between elections, as is the case now with Reform. There was a huge pro Corbyn surge, then the doubts set in. I think people go along with tides.

Possibly at the last election, the majority in the country voted to see an end to the Conservative party's long reign? It was a record low turnout, the lowest since 1928, Labour secured just over a third of the vote but a large majority of seats.

Starmer's relatively calm, competent style in comparison I agree is a welcome relief after recent Tory PMs. Burham is also relatively calm, competent and has a history of many successes in Greater Manchester and has won three successive mayoral elections. In my view he would also be competent on the world stage. But if competence is the defining positive characteristic- why so many U turns under Starmer domestically? I didn't expect to see a Labour government scrap state support for pensioners and disabled people, introduce one of the harshest asylum systems in Europe and lock up elderly people holding placards opposing genocide. If Starmer is so competent why does he have a net favourability rating of -57?

I shudder to think that Farage/ Reform UK may win the next election. Thus to protect its third share of the public vote and have the chance of a second term, Labour needs to reflect how it's going to secure success.

Starmer and the NEC's decision to block Burnham makes sense if it is to protect Starmer as PM. To me it doesn't make sense in the context of strengthening the chances of winning a second term and risk undermining Starmer's position further. In my view he would have been stronger to allow Burnham to stand and take his chances.

Starmer will continue to face leadership challenge with or without Burham in the mix. He will possibly face a vote of no confidence if May election results poor. A loss of a Labour MP at the Gorton and Denton by-election, if that happens will exacerbate party factions and turn the focus back to Starmer's defensive decision- making.

60% of labour members polled thought Burnham should have been allowed to stand as MP in the by election. Labour members also said they prefer Burham to Starmer as Labour leader by 48% to 26% and the only one among senior labour figures to score a positive public rating. Wes Streeting scores next but much lower than Burnham. He still remains as challenging, bombastic contender though much less liked by the public.

I shudder at the thought of a Reform UK government being successful at the next election. I would much prefer a Labour government. Decisions that put party first rather than protecting Starmer as PM seems the most sensible way to go.

Certainly a lot of young voters liked Corbyn ( remember Glasto?) but it didn’t translate to actual votes.It could be that Reform will be similar but the age of the voters will be anything from younger to old and middle aged and older people actually go out and vote.The electorate are unhappy and if things stay the same in a few years then they are willing to try something different.

Oreo

The majority of the country is working class ( I know defining that isn’t what it was) and they want a country that works for them.
Labour used to fit the bill and now sadly it doesn’t.

I do like the American English, “regular people” it's an informal, non-technical term generally referring to people who:

*Work for wages or salaries
*Depend on the economy functioning (jobs, prices, healthcare, housing)
*Are not insulated from everyday financial risk

It overlaps with what the UK might call 'working class' with what we might call the 'middle class', but avoids explicit class language. High-earning professionals can still be “regular people” if they need to work and are economically exposed. Overall it's less about income level and more about having to participate in ordinary economic life rather than being protected by wealth.

Americans are culturally uncomfortable with rigid class labels so this works for them. Every time I think we have grown out of the "class" labels of old, something happens to show how much the still matter, still have influence, still make "working class" difficult to define

They use regular guy or regular Joe in the US.It’s never caught on here.
They don’t have an overt class system but nevertheless it’s still there.

If we use the phrase working class tho less defined than it used to be ( manual labour) people here understand the phrase and our country is mainly made up of those ‘regular guys’ if preferred.Which is why taxes across the board need to go up as there will never be enough produced by just squeezing the very rich.