Huntley and comeuppance

The people who live in Soham won’t care two hoots whatever happens to Huntley and it’s you saying that people lack a moral compass if they condone violence between two violent men in prison, not me.

I do not condone violence in any situation except as defence against attack. I certainly do not condone violence between 2 violent people. Two wrongs have never made a right - and they never will.

Yes Dickens, the job adverts only give the positives.

Police officers have seen their pay stagnate for far too long and it’s bad for morale, maybe the same for prison officers too.
There’s also too many inexperienced prison staff due to cutting of jobs in the past.

foxie48

Oreo

foxie48

IMO anyone condoning violence, even if it is between two prisoners who have committed vile murders, are lacking in a moral compass. Our prison officers should not have to accept it as "part of the job" because it's not.

I expect that the entire village of Soham and untold millions in this country are ‘lacking in a moral compass’ by your standards then.
And yes prison officers do accept it as part of the job and it’s sad that they have to but we don’t live in Utopia.

If we lived in Utopia, Oreo we wouldn't have people like Huntley committing crimes against children. It is because we don't live in Utopia that we need a moral compass and to suggest that people who live in Soham don't have a moral compass is frankly very insulting. You may think it's acceptable for prisoners to be attacked in prison but there are millions of us who don't.

foxie48
The people who live in Soham won’t care two hoots whatever happens to Huntley and it’s you saying that people lack a moral compass if they condone violence between two violent men in prison, not me.

ViceVersa

However, Oreo, do you not accept that the threat of violence towards police and prison officers is probably greater now than it ever was? I already stated that yes, dealing with that may be part of their job (and they are trained to do so - to a certain extent anyway), but that doesn't mean that we should consider it to be acceptable. No-one should be subjected to abuse and violence on a daily basis as part of their job - even if they are trained to cope with it.

I agree with what you say, it isn’t acceptable but it’s a fact of life especially now when assaults in prisons on officers and the same for police officers is up in numbers due to lots of things, overcrowding and gang violence and so on.
It’s not a job for the faint hearted.That’s why salaries and training need to be tip top.

Iam64

Of course prison officers recognise the possibility of violence. Their training is more about reducing its risk than ‘dealing’ with it. It’s my understanding that Frankland is poorly designed and that contributes to violence

Yes - I'd imagine that "risk-assessment" is a good chunk of their training requiring a certain level of intelligence and awareness in addition to their capability to be 'tough cookies'.

Minimising risks by saying it’s part of the job is insensitive to say the least

When there has been an abscondment, or an act of violence perpetrated by one prisoner against another - I don't know but I bet the following investigation looks at whether or not the officers involved were somehow negligent in their duty, that's something else POs have to contend with apart from the threat of physical violence to themselves.

Who the heck wants a job like that!

Fortunately, there are those willing to do it and they deserve a bit more than a dismissive well-they-knew-what-they-were-signing-up-for... I'd imagine the reality of what they signed up to is far more intense than the theory of it, considering the current state of our prisons.

Why does anyone on GN wish to condone violence?
Legal punishment for those found to be guilty, yes.

Oreo

foxie48

IMO anyone condoning violence, even if it is between two prisoners who have committed vile murders, are lacking in a moral compass. Our prison officers should not have to accept it as "part of the job" because it's not.

I expect that the entire village of Soham and untold millions in this country are ‘lacking in a moral compass’ by your standards then.
And yes prison officers do accept it as part of the job and it’s sad that they have to but we don’t live in Utopia.

If we lived in Utopia, Oreo we wouldn't have people like Huntley committing crimes against children. It is because we don't live in Utopia that we need a moral compass and to suggest that people who live in Soham don't have a moral compass is frankly very insulting. You may think it's acceptable for prisoners to be attacked in prison but there are millions of us who don't.

However, Oreo, do you not accept that the threat of violence towards police and prison officers is probably greater now than it ever was? I already stated that yes, dealing with that may be part of their job (and they are trained to do so - to a certain extent anyway), but that doesn't mean that we should consider it to be acceptable. No-one should be subjected to abuse and violence on a daily basis as part of their job - even if they are trained to cope with it.

LemonJam

Agree Foxie- it’s that - posters are saying condoning violence, prisoner on prisoner, customer on service provider, patient on health care worker etc etc or shouldn’t be acceptable or tolerated because ‘it comes with the job’. It’s wrong and unjustifiable which is where this posts began. The attack on Huntley many posters feel was unjustified from rule of law perspective and associated risk to police officers as they are required to intervene and de escalate.

Jeez!
Posters are saying, what posters? Does making things up count as truth on here?
I may be the only poster saying that for police officers and prison officers the threat of violence comes with the nature of the job, what’s so hard to understand about that? No other jobs have been included by me, or as far as I can see by anyone else.

foxie48

IMO anyone condoning violence, even if it is between two prisoners who have committed vile murders, are lacking in a moral compass. Our prison officers should not have to accept it as "part of the job" because it's not.

I expect that the entire village of Soham and untold millions in this country are ‘lacking in a moral compass’ by your standards then.
And yes prison officers do accept it as part of the job and it’s sad that they have to but we don’t live in Utopia.

Agree Foxie- it’s that - posters are saying condoning violence, prisoner on prisoner, customer on service provider, patient on health care worker etc etc or shouldn’t be acceptable or tolerated because ‘it comes with the job’. It’s wrong and unjustifiable which is where this posts began. The attack on Huntley many posters feel was unjustified from rule of law perspective and associated risk to police officers as they are required to intervene and de escalate.

Thanks to Lemon, vice and MOnica for your posts setting out the increase in violence towards other public servants

I retired after forty years of working with offenders, children and families, mental health, drug/alcohol abuse and more. I’d been threatened but was relieved not to have been assaulted
Many colleagues weren’t so fortunate.

Of course prison officers recognise the possibility of violence. Their training is more about reducing its risk than ‘dealing’ with it. It’s my understanding that Frankland is poorly designed and that contributes to violence

Minimising risks by saying it’s part of the job is insensitive to say the least

IMO anyone condoning violence, even if it is between two prisoners who have committed vile murders, are lacking in a moral compass. Our prison officers should not have to accept it as "part of the job" because it's not.

You’d be hard pushed to evidence health care workers in the front line experience less actual and potential assault than police officers and prison officers. A and E departments particularly dangerous. I go into police stations and have a private 121 consultation with arrested detainee before and after police interview - I am alone. Some have been arrested for murder, rape, assault etc just hours earlier. The custody sergeant may warn me they’ve been aggressive and hitting out in their cells. Yes they’ve had any deadly weapons confiscated but the reality is I’m petite and they easily could quickly harm me if they so choose.

The point being many jobs carry risk of assault and injury. As already stated saying that “ comes with the job” and /or go and do another job then” doesn’t benefit recruitment, retention and society in all these various jobs.

Yes, obviously police and prison officers do know that comes with the job - but they are far more likely to face abuse and violence on a daily basis now than they were years ago. The police, for example, have to deal with people with serious mental health issues, some of whom can be extremely violent, whereas years ago those people would be in some form of institution or care facility.
There's also much less respect for the police now. When we were growing up, you wouldn't even have dared to be cheeky to the police, for instance - nowadays many don't care because they know there are little or no consequences for their actions.

I went to the dentist this morning to make an appointment. It is a mixed NHS and private practice. There was a big notice on the wall in Recepion saying that violence was not acceptable and I noticed that the receptionists were behind a solid partition about 1 metre plus high with a clear plastic screen above that.

Where we used to live, we had no choice but go private and the receptionists there had low desks with flowers on.

Violence is and has been for a lot of years now been creeping into jobs such as teaching, nursing and social services but nothing like on the scale that police and prison officers face and know goes with their job.

It is about what I said tho, as my comments certainly do not
Equally apply to other civil servants and that is purely your own take on it which I take exception to.
If I say police and prison officers then that’s exactly who I mean and not a long list of your own choosing.

As for not wanting violent psychopaths appointed to those jobs, where does that come from?

It isn’t about what you’ve said Oreo. Your comment to apply equally to the other public servants I mentioned. Violence towards those groups, let’s add teachers shall we, is more likeky now than before

To confine to police and Prison officers - the kind of violence they now experience is more dangerous as research confirms . I don’t want violent psychopaths appointed because they welcome violence

Iam64

Rosie and LemonJam 👏👍🏻

* I find your total disregard for their safety really quite disturbing*
So do I Rosie. The belief that police/prison/nurses/social and mh workers being attacked or assaulted at work is just part of the job is so wrong on so many levels. It worries me that the suggestion is we need equally unstable, violent individuals in those roles. No we don’t

Here’s an example of the C Whispers in action.
It’s now been extended to social workers, nurses, and MH workers when in fact I have been talking of police and prison officers only.
Much is talked on here about facts and not wild opinions but we are now going down the GN rabbit hole yet again.
Would you maybe read my posts again Iam64 and you will see exactly what I have said,rather than what you think I have said.

GN threads are like Chinese Whispers.
nobody has said that violence should be tolerated or is acceptable, of course it isn’t!
It isn’t part of the job for nurses or doctors but does happen now and then, whereas it rarely happened in the past.
But where we are talking of police and prison officers it always has been part of the job and those officers know it.
There would be better take up of those jobs if the money was better.

Rosie and LemonJam 👏👍🏻

* I find your total disregard for their safety really quite disturbing*
So do I Rosie. The belief that police/prison/nurses/social and mh workers being attacked or assaulted at work is just part of the job is so wrong on so many levels. It worries me that the suggestion is we need equally unstable, violent individuals in those roles. No we don’t

LemonJam

Sadly data shows violence and attacks is increasing year on year in many jobs and professions e.g. Nurses, Care assistants. Paramedics, Police officers and Prison Officers etc. In my view it's a cop out to say "it goes with the job"- and they "shouldn't be afraid". no there are zero tolerance notices and signs in NHS remises, police custody suites prisons etc and rightly so- it should not be routinely tolerated. Particualalry as those jobs increasingly have unfilled vacancies year on year and have recruitment and retention problems.

Society will suffer the consequences if the year on year increase of such attacks continues.

It isn’t routinely tolerated but apart from signs ( which violent people or those with MH problems or drunks are unlikely to read or take notice of) what else can be done?
What’s needed are higher salaries and just maybe better training for dealing with violence.

Well, doesn't that mean Rosie's comment has more relevance?