Matt Goodwin

Dear God, for some reason I too thought op and martavtaurus were the same person, this despite the fact that ops posts are in green on my phone

LemonJam

MartavTaurus- 11.07- yes sorry I was mixing you up with OP saying the book extract in DM was "excellent".

Crossed post.

Okie Dokie.

MaizieD

MartavTaurus

Graphite

You’re choice, Oreo, to close your ears and eyes. We can chose to challenge the assertion that Goodwin has written an “excellent piece”, to engage fully with a topic or to post drive-by sarcasm.

Same to you. Where did I say "excellent" piece of writing? I'm keen to find out.
Otherwise this is how posters get their words manipulated or misappropriated.

I was a bit 😕 at that so I looked back and couldn't find you saying it. I think it was a bit of accidental misattribution. It happens from time to time.

Thank you , MaizieD.
( I trust you not to misattribute an individual's quotes on here!)

MartavTaurus- 11.07- yes sorry I was mixing you up with OP saying the book extract in DM was "excellent".

MartavTaurus

Graphite

You’re choice, Oreo, to close your ears and eyes. We can chose to challenge the assertion that Goodwin has written an “excellent piece”, to engage fully with a topic or to post drive-by sarcasm.

Same to you. Where did I say "excellent" piece of writing? I'm keen to find out.
Otherwise this is how posters get their words manipulated or misappropriated.

I was a bit 😕 at that so I looked back and couldn't find you saying it. I think it was a bit of accidental misattribution. It happens from time to time.

Graphite

You’re choice, Oreo, to close your ears and eyes. We can chose to challenge the assertion that Goodwin has written an “excellent piece”, to engage fully with a topic or to post drive-by sarcasm.

Same to you. Where did I say "excellent" piece of writing? I'm keen to find out.
Otherwise this is how posters get their words manipulated or misappropriated.

LemonJam

Good indeed we can laugh Galaxy. The whole situation is hilarious in many ways at one level. Farage saying it was a mistake to take on Worcs CC because it proved too difficult and finances were challenging. A poster lauding a book ( of may pages), by a wannabe Reform MP, putting forward his case that England "is lost" etc etc. Yet when posters seek to challenge MG's case they must question, challenge and respond in a way acceptable to another poster and any deviation form their expected standard results in pejorative comments that their posts come across as a "judge" and/or their posts are too long, ie TDLR - too long I didn't read etc. Their loss in my view. I mean Matt Goodwin's book is many pages longer like all things Reform- one rule for them and other rules for others....

These are some of the reasons I find Reform and Reform wannabe MPs and some of their supporters difficult to take seriously. They come across as unwilling and/or unable to engage in reasoned discourse/debate, cant deal with anything more than simple bite size communication, have a style of denigrating others, and promote divisiveness instead of respect and inclusivity.

Meandrogog I must acknowledge you however have been polite in response to my posts and we respect and accept our views differ- I simply seek to understand the reasons for some some of your views by posing questions- as is usual in debate.

So hilarious on one level but not what I'd wish for the country in a GE- government is a serious, complex matter.

Thank you LemonJam, I do think it important to be respectful of others views. I am quite happy to live in a multicultural country, with Muslims,
Jews etc. I imagine most people are happy with this, and it makes for a colourful community. Its the extremists who spoil it for the majority, and I would not want our customs, way of life to be changed to suit other religions. It is probably the fear of this happening which is the appeal of Reform.

In answer to Graphite, I do not know of the writings of Toynbee, I will do some research to learn more. I have heard of his granddaughter, Polly Toynbee, I feel she is a left wing journalist?

I am trying to get hold of the above mentioned book atm.

LemonJam

I think you're right Galaxy and thank you. I accept I get frustrated with slogan and simplistic debate. I accept I challenge and that my background shapes my communication style. I accept not all will read my posts as they find them TLDR- too long for them so don't read, it's all water off a ducks back and we are all different. My responses are as valid as anyone else's and we all have right of reply.

Absolutely. Criticising posts for having nuance and avoiding cliches is the last vestige of those with no argument of their own.

We saw this all the time in the 'trans' threads. Précis a post and get picked up on the one thing you've cut out, or put it all in and get told TLDR (a very rude response, IMO). Complex problems need complex discussion.

As you say, we are all different (hence the need for tabloids as well as broadsheets), but many of us prefer to read posts that have been properly considered in our own words, rather than cut and pasted slogans.

LemonJam

I acknowledge you finish by saying "I certainly don't think that Reform would be better able to improve the situation" but that leads me to question why and in what way you think the extracts you read from Matt Goodwin's book are "excellent"? .

Can you tell me where I awarded his report as excellent please, so I can construct my reply?

I said he overdid/exaggerated the dissatisfied narrative.

So are you mixing me up???

I think you're right Galaxy and thank you. I accept I get frustrated with slogan and simplistic debate. I accept I challenge and that my background shapes my communication style. I accept not all will read my posts as they find them TLDR- too long for them so don't read, it's all water off a ducks back and we are all different. My responses are as valid as anyone else's and we all have right of reply.

What I would say lemonjam is that a lot of the discourse in general is simplistic and not addressing the issues. I find that across all parties and possibly across society. I feel as if people jump on a subject whether it is women, racism whatever, say a few slogans and think that is the answer. I think stop the boats, regain our country, transwomen are women, diversity is our strength, are all examples of that. I think all those slogans divide us into tribes and mean we can't look at really complex problems. I am not aiming this at people on here but rather as a societal issue that doesn't just lie with reform and those who vote reform.

Sorry Maizie my at least we can laugh was in response to lemonjam. I will stop the one sentence responses now

Good indeed we can laugh Galaxy. The whole situation is hilarious in many ways at one level. Farage saying it was a mistake to take on Worcs CC because it proved too difficult and finances were challenging. A poster lauding a book ( of may pages), by a wannabe Reform MP, putting forward his case that England "is lost" etc etc. Yet when posters seek to challenge MG's case they must question, challenge and respond in a way acceptable to another poster and any deviation form their expected standard results in pejorative comments that their posts come across as a "judge" and/or their posts are too long, ie TDLR - too long I didn't read etc. Their loss in my view. I mean Matt Goodwin's book is many pages longer like all things Reform- one rule for them and other rules for others....

These are some of the reasons I find Reform and Reform wannabe MPs and some of their supporters difficult to take seriously. They come across as unwilling and/or unable to engage in reasoned discourse/debate, cant deal with anything more than simple bite size communication, have a style of denigrating others, and promote divisiveness instead of respect and inclusivity.

Meandrogog I must acknowledge you however have been polite in response to my posts and we respect and accept our views differ- I simply seek to understand the reasons for some some of your views by posing questions- as is usual in debate.

So hilarious on one level but not what I'd wish for the country in a GE- government is a serious, complex matter.

Thanks for reposting it cossy.
Some of these longer posts get lost too soon in the continuing discussion.

Maremia

Graphite, that is some list, thank you.
Signs of fascism.
Do any of them resonate with what we know of Reform?
For me, yes.
Do I want to live under a fascist regime? No.

Completely agree!

Galaxy

At least we can laugh

And long may this last.

Many of the posts in here bring a huge smile to my face, especially those specifically designed not to do so

Graphite, that is some list, thank you.
Signs of fascism.
Do any of them resonate with what we know of Reform?
For me, yes.
Do I want to live under a fascist regime? No.

*Warning Signs of Fascism:

1. Cult of the Leader
2. Powerful and continuing nationalism
3. Disdain for human rights
4. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
5. Rampant sexism
6. Controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and government intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labour power suppressed
11. Obsession with crime and punishment
12. Rampant cronyism and corruption*

Personally I don’t think the Greens tick these boxes, or at least no less or more than our other political parties, especially the first half of number 12, “rampant cronyism”

In terms of Polanski, I find him odd in himself and an odd choice for any party leadership. Maybe I’m out of touch!

Bit off topic, but there you go.

Oreo

MaizieD

Oreo

We can all quote chunks we have come across in newspapers books and online but much better to use our own words and reasoning.

Why should we do that if the authors we quote can do it clearly and succinctly?

I'm always curious as to how people manage to form their opinions without reading/listening to available media.

Because they do read/listen/ watch.

But you've just said you have no time to read

LemonJam

I spent some years presiding over cases in court - that did make me laugh 😂

This thread is becoming increasingly difficult to follow with people popping in unreferenced brief answers on differing aspects.

What made you laugh?

At least we can laugh

Galaxy

Sorry I was answering Maizie there.

Thank you.

I spent some years presiding over cases in court - that did make me laugh 😂

Sorry I was answering Maizie there.

Graphite s list of signs of fascism.