Europe - dare we hope?

Wyllow3

Same principle, MartavTaurus, ie each European country has the right to make its own decisions on that.

But I do admit I used it as a jumping off point for bringing up the speech, I could have posted that in a separate post after, and it's not relevant to Covid.

It's ironic. EU critics often claim that the EU behaves like a united federation and that individual states have no say. Covid demonstrated that states still have a considerable amount of autonomy. Healthcare and public health are two areas where states do act autonomously with limited co-operation.

Central European states nearly all had higher Covid death rates than the UK, which could reflect poorer healthcare, lower vaccination rates, older populations (who knows?) Of the Western and Northern European states, the UK had the highest death rates. I don't think there's a simple reason for that.

Each country is in charge of its own healthcare, as it should be.

nodramahere

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

We are NOT trying to rejoin.

when Johnson made the choices he did around Brexit, he had a fairly blank sheet as regards many aspects, and could have actually have chosen to maintain certain trade standards across borders to make trade easier and ties not be broken.

Same principle, MartavTaurus, ie each European country has the right to make its own decisions on that.

But I do admit I used it as a jumping off point for bringing up the speech, I could have posted that in a separate post after, and it's not relevant to Covid.

nodramahere

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

That was 10 years ago. The "people" aren't the same people. Nothing is ever set in stone.

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

Wyllow3

MartavTaurus

It was apparent, when Covid reared its ugly head, that there was no joined up thinking between any of the EU countries.

Not true.

"So even if we were still a member of the EU, the UK regulator would have been able to take this decision on its own because EU law already allows it. Incidentally, that legislation took effect in the UK in 2012, long before Brexit was on the cards"

read in full

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

I think you misunderstood, Wyllow3.
I was referring to the initial response to the escalation of Covid, where there was little integrated thinking between the EU countries. Nothing to do with the UK and the vaccine??

At the time, Brexit or no Brexit, the EU was not great at coming together and working more systemically against the spread of Covid. A unified response wasn't quickly forthcoming because at the end of the day, each nation does what suits them best. Understandably and inevitable in a way.

The EU countries have often bickered, and wasted time and effort, though ironically with Ukraine and the current war now, there's far greater joined up thinking. And thankfully for everyone, Starmer is actually a driving force in this.

PS. I was somewhat perplexed as to why I might be expected to follow your rather abrupt command to read in full when the article was irrelevant to the point I was making?

Oreo

I voted to Remain as I couldn’t really decide at the time, but since then, having more time to think about it, I think Leave was the right course.Unfortunately the Covid Pandemic and then the cost of supporting Ukraine hasn’t given Brexit a fighting chance.It just needs time.

If Brexit had been the right decision, it would have been resilient enough to withstand Covid and Ukraine crises.

Claiming that Brexit would work if only conditions were perfect is nonsensical. Any system has to factor in the unknown.

I was glad to hear in R Reeves speech today. (The annual Mais Lecture at the Bayes Business School in London)

The UK should follow more of the European Union’s rules to boost trade and cut prices, Rachel Reeves said

She warned the UK risked being “stranded” between rival trading blocs unless it sought a closer relationship with Brussels.

She said the UK would still diverge from the EU’s regulations in some areas but they would be “the exception, not the norm”.

full speech
www.gov.uk/government/speeches/mais-lecture-2026

MartavTaurus

It was apparent, when Covid reared its ugly head, that there was no joined up thinking between any of the EU countries.

Not true.

"So even if we were still a member of the EU, the UK regulator would have been able to take this decision on its own because EU law already allows it. Incidentally, that legislation took effect in the UK in 2012, long before Brexit was on the cards"

read in full

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

It was apparent, when Covid reared its ugly head, that there was no joined up thinking between any of the EU countries.

Oreo

I voted to Remain as I couldn’t really decide at the time, but since then, having more time to think about it, I think Leave was the right course.Unfortunately the Covid Pandemic and then the cost of supporting Ukraine hasn’t given Brexit a fighting chance.It just needs time.

It was already apparent that Brexit was an huge mistake when Covid reared its ugly head.

I voted to Remain as I couldn’t really decide at the time, but since then, having more time to think about it, I think Leave was the right course.Unfortunately the Covid Pandemic and then the cost of supporting Ukraine hasn’t given Brexit a fighting chance.It just needs time.

Too much movement came the UK’s way.

FranP

Luckygirl3

We need them more than they need us. Brexit has left us on the back foot.

Given we are paying far too much for the divorce - they need us. Really bad exit negotiations, really bad contract in the first place.
When we went in it was like minded, like valued countries, even though both Spain and Italy had their problems, but now the EU is full of gimme countries who cannot afford to be in. It would appear that Denmark and France are unhappy and reconsidering

I agree with you FranP Greece shouldn’t have been accepted into the EU either.

What’s wrong with that?

Freedom of movement.

MaizieD

What are these 'open EU borders' that you see as a problem, Oreo?

Quite.

Yes I know exactly what you mean.

I think that Europe was often used as the whipping boy to hide rubbish decisions by our governments and as a result, Europe was blamed wrongly for being over powerful etc.

Years ago - I did a course about Europe, it’s various workings etc. - it would bring so much more understanding and be more democratic if people had that advantage.

Whitewavemark2

Yes I take your point, but don’t forget we had all sorts of opt outs - the best of both worlds in fact!

Maybe if consecutive U.K. governments had adopted a more European approach to EU rules it would have been seen as a different kettle of fish, and not seen as us being dictated to by them

(I appreciate that the above is simplistic musing but hopefully you will get my gist.)

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The peace dividend has allowed Europe to become bloated welfare states and to hide behind the nebulous concept of international law. The tide’s going out now and we can see who isn't wearing a swimming costume.

Gransnet is to be congratulated on attracting majority belief in the rule of law , whilst tolerating your opinion on international law.

"It wasn't totally pie in the sky, and I think opinion pllls showed that around 33% French people were in favour of leaving. Le Pen's proposal was ultimately rejected."

France leaving the EU with land borders with 6 other countries would be unworkable the whole of the EU would have had to change, a big leap to the right to prevent a split.
As it is now several countries are moving to the right, Spain the opposite, with the present worry over military security France holds a great many cards to negotiate a better deal and stay in the EU

Yes I take your point, but don’t forget we had all sorts of opt outs - the best of both worlds in fact!

I think that if John Major hadn’t signed up to the Maastricht agreement the U.K. wouldn’t have left the EU.

David49

"I thought lots of other countries were going to follow us when they realised what a great decision we’d made hmm? Whatever came of that I wonder?"

It was just one of the lies amongst many others spread by the Brexit zealots.

Repeat the lie often enough and is becomes fact in the minds of the gullible, Farage is still using it to good effect.

That's not exactly true David49 , and I know this because I was living in France at the time.

Without going into too much detail - because this thread isn't about the past but about our future - France DID consider Frexit at the time the UK had its referendum.

François Hollande met Madame Frexit, Le Pen, on many an occasion to discuss her proposal to have a French referendum to leave the EU.

It wasn't totally pie in the sky, and I think opinion pllls showed that around 33% French people were in favour of leaving. Le Pen's proposal was ultimately rejected.

Then of course Macron was elected in 2017 and to be fair to him he did reconsider leaving the EU. There were many thoughtful interviews on French tv with the two party leaders discussing this. I think Macron even said something like the French were equally disenchanted with globalisation, and if presented with the simple yes or no question, then they would probably have voted for Frexit too.

This is all fact, not a lie. Sorry, it's a bit long winded, but apart from Mamie, and maybe one other, no one on N & P is better informed about French politics than we are, because we lived through it. If anyone wants a meaty read on this EU issue, it's all in Macron's memoir (available in English, but more authentic in French!).

MayBee70

FranP

Luckygirl3

We need them more than they need us. Brexit has left us on the back foot.

Given we are paying far too much for the divorce - they need us. Really bad exit negotiations, really bad contract in the first place.
When we went in it was like minded, like valued countries, even though both Spain and Italy had their problems, but now the EU is full of gimme countries who cannot afford to be in. It would appear that Denmark and France are unhappy and reconsidering

I thought lots of other countries were going to follow us when they realised what a great decision we’d made ? Whatever came of that I wonder?

Oh I'd actually forgotten about that.

I can't forget the morning after when the powers that be stood about and realised they'd forgotten about Ireland.