Europe - dare we hope?

sixandahalf

Allira

sixandahalf

I'd rather be in the boy scouts than in a wrecked youth club.

I'm confused.

Are you saying you'd rather be out of the EU and carry on being "Boy Scouts" rather than in the EU which you think is a "wrecked youth club"?

We know that the UK followed the rules which other countries ignored; it must be in our psyche!

The wrecked youth club is the lawless, underfunded mess we are in with one or two decent youth workers trying to shore up the hut.

The scouts may be boring and predictable and follow rules but I prefer that.

Got it!

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Sanchez is useless.

He seems to talk a lot of sense?

Allira

sixandahalf

I'd rather be in the boy scouts than in a wrecked youth club.

I'm confused.

Are you saying you'd rather be out of the EU and carry on being "Boy Scouts" rather than in the EU which you think is a "wrecked youth club"?

We know that the UK followed the rules which other countries ignored; it must be in our psyche!

The wrecked youth club is the lawless, underfunded mess we are in with one or two decent youth workers trying to shore up the hut.

The scouts may be boring and predictable and follow rules but I prefer that.

Wyllow3

I think its a matter of "some of their standards" David, not "rules": and our request will come at a time when, thanks largely to the clumsy and appalling Trump, other EU countries are inclined to want to stand together to a greater degree than before.
Starmer standing up to Trump on the Iran request will have far reaching consequences in this regard.

The standards are rules or laws, the big one is freedom of movement, but also trade and tariff policy is important, while we were members we could negotiate policy, now we have to accept what they decide, a big disadvantage.

If we are still hung up on divergence we are not going to get much changed, because they want the opposite

I think its a matter of "some of their standards" David, not "rules": and our request will come at a time when, thanks largely to the clumsy and appalling Trump, other EU countries are inclined to want to stand together to a greater degree than before.
Starmer standing up to Trump on the Iran request will have far reaching consequences in this regard.

If it sounds like an anti EU tropes MaizieD , then I'm happy for you to suggest a different verb.

I explained my objection to that specific phrase 'rules dictated by Bruxelles' in my post. I can't suggest an alternative verb because I don't think the phrase is an accurate or true description of the process. The process which I did then outline.

You might just as well say that the UK is governed by 'rules dictated by Whitehall i.e the civil service' ( 'Brussels' being the Leave code word for the EU civil service, 'unelected bureaucrats') and it would be equally inaccurate/untrue

And I never ever inferred you are naive .

I didn't say that you did. It was a pre-emptive statement to forestall posters accusing me of having a rose tinted view of the EU. I've been in and out of this sort of discussion on Gnet since 2016 so am well aware of how posters can react.

There was one fatal flaw in the Brexit campaign. It was based on cherry picking and changing our regulation (divergence) to take advantage of it. Only the gullible believed that, you don't leave a partnership then ask for preferential treatment, you go off on your own and paddle your own canoe

EU was never going to agree to that because every other member would try the same trick. Secondly the EU was 50% of our trade it's madness to turn your back on your largest customer.

So it proved, we are going back cap in hand asking for concessions, how humiliating is that, we will get few crumbs but not the big changes needed until we accept their rules.

sixandahalf

I'd rather be in the boy scouts than in a wrecked youth club.

I'm confused.

Are you saying you'd rather be out of the EU and carry on being "Boy Scouts" rather than in the EU which you think is a "wrecked youth club"?

We know that the UK followed the rules which other countries ignored; it must be in our psyche!

I take it you’re just speaking for yourself there, as you have no idea how much anybody else has considered or knows? I suspect many people know a great deal.

I think that’s probably true Casdon.

It’s not a case of just wishing for it 25Avalon, that implies that we don’t know enough about the pros and cons to have formed a considered view?

Be careful you don’t get what you wish for. EU countries are also suffering economic downturns and the cost of returning may not reap the dividends some expect. Brexit was never properly implemented either primarily due to the grandees of the Tory party.

I was always proud that the UK followed the EU rules. I did so while running a business in France too, but was occasionally ridiculed, in a friendly way, by French people for sticking to the letter of EU law!

In the bigger picture, the French government certainly wasn't squeaky clean, and I believe there are a couple of enquires underway regarding their questionable usage of the rules.

I'd rather be in the boy scouts than in a wrecked youth club.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

Definitely.

GrannyGravy13

MartavTaurus

I'd have no problem with a totally united federal Europe. In fact I'd be quite happy to have the rules dictated by Bruxelles -provided other European countries followed these directives to the letter. That's the issue I witnessed living in Europe for many years. France in particular was a master at agreeing to laws, then bending them to conveniently suit themselves!

Totally agree on this one, not just France, Spain is rather good at doing its own thing

I posted up thread the U.K. was good at following the rules to the letter maybe we should have been more fluid…

Indeed.

Whether dictate is too strong a word and has anti EU connotations, I don't know. I know the word diktats is used by the EU. My understanding is that you can have royal diktats, a company director can issue a diktat that employees shouldn't wear jeans, I gave diktats on school on policies after discussion etc.

If it sounds like an anti EU tropes MaizieD , then I'm happy for you to suggest a different verb. And I never ever inferred you are naive .

As GG13 implies, however authoritarian the rules or orders were, other European countries did not follow the rule book in the same way as the UK did.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

We were at the forefront of making a lot of the rules however. It is a British thing to highly regulate, regardless of the EU.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

Yet 'freedom of movement'. a great bone of contention in the EU debate, was one area where the UK didn't 'gold plate' the rules. In fact was extraordinarily lax over them.

We have, to some extent, our own bureaucracy to blame for the Brexit mess...

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

😂 very true

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

MartavTaurus

I'd have no problem with a totally united federal Europe. In fact I'd be quite happy to have the rules dictated by Bruxelles -provided other European countries followed these directives to the letter. That's the issue I witnessed living in Europe for many years. France in particular was a master at agreeing to laws, then bending them to conveniently suit themselves!

Totally agree on this one, not just France, Spain is rather good at doing its own thing

I posted up thread the U.K. was good at following the rules to the letter maybe we should have been more fluid…

…the rules dictated by Bruxelles’

Why use anti EU tropes when you must know perfectly well that ‘the rules’ were arrived at by agreement between the member states (and yes, I do know that some MS views were given more weight than others, I’m not totally naive), not central dictact by ‘unelected bureaucrats’.

I'd have no problem with a totally united federal Europe. In fact I'd be quite happy to have the rules dictated by Bruxelles -provided other European countries followed these directives to the letter. That's the issue I witnessed living in Europe for many years. France in particular was a master at agreeing to laws, then bending them to conveniently suit themselves!

Why? As a sovereign nation we can opt out of any agreement we are in.

twaddle

nodramahere

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

That was 10 years ago. The "people" aren't the same people. Nothing is ever set in stone.

Except it would be set in stone if the vote had gone the other way.