Zack Polanski

Cossy

Doodledog

I know what you mean, Cossy, but the difficulty in knowing their motives and to what extent they have consented makes me worry that they will still be coerced into doing it.

Me too, it’s a very thin line, and is much rather see these women (& men), supported into other sustainable employment.

If there were no sex workers femail or male where would some disabled go to have sex?
I knew a lady who had the same condition as the actress in Silent witness. She still had her needs but found it nigh on impossible to meet a man who accepted her condition.
She had a sex worker for some years.
I also knew a wheelchair bound young man who found it hard to find a young woman who would accept his disability.
He used sex workers.

Doodledog

I know what you mean, Cossy, but the difficulty in knowing their motives and to what extent they have consented makes me worry that they will still be coerced into doing it.

Me too, it’s a very thin line, and is much rather see these women (& men), supported into other sustainable employment.

twaddle

ViceVersa

I agree with you, Iam64. And I do wonder how many of those in favour of legalisation would be happy for their own daughter or granddaughters to be involved in the sex industry.

I wouldn't be the slightest bit supportive if my daughter were to be involved in the sex industry, but that's not the point. Not having legalised brothels hasn't deterred women (and some men) in the past and the "industry" will continue whether or not there are regulated brothels. I don't really see that my daughter has anything to do with it. I don't think she'd become a prostitute, whether or not there are legal brothels.

So, let's say for the sake of argument that all sex work is legalised, would you be happy for it to be a career choice to be discussed like any others in school, for instance? If it's not a 'career' you'd be happy for your daughter or granddaughter to follow, then why is it ok for someone else's? That's hypocritical to say the least.

Iam64

Well said Oreo. I’m opposed to legality since ngbie normalising an ‘industry’ that causes untold damage.

twaddle, have you watched the Three girls drama that sets out the involvement of girls 11 plus in abuse by organised criminal gangs? Or read any testimonies from the women drawn into sexual exploitation by Epstein, often when they were 14 or younger. If there was a simple way to respond, health, probation, social workers, police would have developed it by now

And- legalising etc gives the message to men that abusing women is ok, especially if they’re paid

I've been reading about the German laws and it's made very clear that the government doesn't "approve".

Men will use prostitutes, whether or not it's "normalised".

ViceVersa

I agree with you, Iam64. And I do wonder how many of those in favour of legalisation would be happy for their own daughter or granddaughters to be involved in the sex industry.

I wouldn't be the slightest bit supportive if my daughter were to be involved in the sex industry, but that's not the point. Not having legalised brothels hasn't deterred women (and some men) in the past and the "industry" will continue whether or not there are regulated brothels. I don't really see that my daughter has anything to do with it. I don't think she'd become a prostitute, whether or not there are legal brothels.

Iam64

Well said Oreo. I’m opposed to legality since ngbie normalising an ‘industry’ that causes untold damage.

twaddle, have you watched the Three girls drama that sets out the involvement of girls 11 plus in abuse by organised criminal gangs? Or read any testimonies from the women drawn into sexual exploitation by Epstein, often when they were 14 or younger. If there was a simple way to respond, health, probation, social workers, police would have developed it by now

And- legalising etc gives the message to men that abusing women is ok, especially if they’re paid

Yes, I have. Those women were abused despite not having legalised brothels. That's my point. It will happen whether there are legalised brothels or not.

I agree with you, Iam64. And I do wonder how many of those in favour of legalisation would be happy for their own daughter or granddaughters to be involved in the sex industry.

Well said Oreo. I’m opposed to legality since ngbie normalising an ‘industry’ that causes untold damage.

twaddle, have you watched the Three girls drama that sets out the involvement of girls 11 plus in abuse by organised criminal gangs? Or read any testimonies from the women drawn into sexual exploitation by Epstein, often when they were 14 or younger. If there was a simple way to respond, health, probation, social workers, police would have developed it by now

And- legalising etc gives the message to men that abusing women is ok, especially if they’re paid

Oreo

I am very uneasy about brothels, once in there all kinds of things can happen to girls/boys/ women!
So I would say no to any legalisation of the sex ‘industry’

I have absolutely no knowledge of brothels or any form of sex work. I can 't say brothels would be my favourite place, but I suspect women (and some men) are safer in a brothel than they are on the streets.

Many years ago, I had a conversation with a man who used prostitutes. Apparently, he rang up and somebody came round to a hotel room he'd booked. It was somebody I knew professionally and I was quite shocked. He could have been just about anybody to the women involved. If there was no way of stopping him from using prostitutes, it would have been safer if they had met in a regulated environment.

Galaxy

There is no control of the situation, it has become the legalised abuse of women. The whole sex work is work does so much more damage to women than the manosphere for example.

If you're talking about Germany, I don't think that's quite true. It's your opinion and you are, of course, free to interpret it as you wish. Interestingly, Germany has had legalised brothels for decades. If they were to be made illegal, what do you think the outcome would be? My guess is that the whole thing would go underground, women would still be exploited, but they there wouldn't even be limited protection.

I think it's good that the issue is being discussed and am quite glad the Greens have put it on the table. It's naive to think that keeping prostitution illegal will make it disappear. I expect you agree with me that the best outcome would be if prostitution were to disappear, but I don't think that's going to happen, so I feel that being pragmatic and trying to regulate the business is one way to try and keep sex workers relatively safe.

Absolutely brilliant article on the greens and this issue by julie bindel in the telegraph. I hadn't realised caroline lucas used to be opposed to legalisation until the 'progressive' men expressed their concern.

I am very uneasy about brothels, once in there all kinds of things can happen to girls/boys/ women!
So I would say no to any legalisation of the sex ‘industry’

There is no control of the situation, it has become the legalised abuse of women. The whole sex work is work does so much more damage to women than the manosphere for example.

Galaxy

If you google mega brothels in Germany feminist analysis you will see a range of articles some even from the guardian, analysing what happened in terms of human trafficking etc, one of the main owners was convicted of trafficking a few years back.

I know that there are many women trafficked from Eastern Europe, but maybe they're safer in Germany than they would be in their own countries.

Trafficking is an issue even in countries where prostitution isn't legal/regulated. In Germany, at least, an attempt is made to control the situation.

Iam64

twaddle, the children who are known to have been sexually abused are likely to get a level of appropriate support. Many children are never identified.
I can’t imagine what kind of ‘scheme’ you’re imagining

The way I'm thinking, people are being quite fatalistic about abused children ending up doing sex work. If that's true, they need protecting once they reach their teenage years and older.

It would be best of all if they can be steered away from drugs and sex work, etc, but how do you do that?

If they do end up doing sex work, it needs to be made as safe as possible. It seems counterproductive to prosecute and punish them, although there's a lot of stigma about what they do.

I don't suppose there's ever been a time when women haven't resorted to prostitution and men have abused them. Maybe we need to accept it as a fact of life and just do our best to keep the women as safe as possible. (I don't know.)

twaddle, the children who are known to have been sexually abused are likely to get a level of appropriate support. Many children are never identified.
I can’t imagine what kind of ‘scheme’ you’re imagining

If you google mega brothels in Germany feminist analysis you will see a range of articles some even from the guardian, analysing what happened in terms of human trafficking etc, one of the main owners was convicted of trafficking a few years back.

Rosie51

That's long been my suspicion Galaxy that a large proportion of sex workers have been damaged by abuse in their childhood/youth and are not making deliberate choices but are 'resigned' to their path in life.
I doubt that many of those who advocate for sex work being a legitimate 'normal' career path would encourage youngsters from their circle to consider it. It's always legitimate and acceptable for others, but 'reasons' why it's not suitable for me or mine.
Perhaps some really do want women displaying themselves in windows as in Holland's red light district. Like meat on a butcher's slab!

Does society support abused children and offer an alternative at an early stage of their lives? I'm not aware of any initiative to support young females, but there might be schemes I know nothing about.

Galaxy

There are very few who choose, once you look at yhe figures of sex workers who have experienced abuse in childhood, it is pretty clear that choice as a word is doing a lot if heavy lifting. I don't know which countries it actually does work in, Germany for example is horrific.

From the evidence you have, why do you think the situation in Germany is worse than in a country such as the UK? I'm not legitimising prostitution, but it seems that Germany is pragmatic, accepts that it will happen, so tries to protect the women (and some men) involved.

That's long been my suspicion Galaxy that a large proportion of sex workers have been damaged by abuse in their childhood/youth and are not making deliberate choices but are 'resigned' to their path in life.
I doubt that many of those who advocate for sex work being a legitimate 'normal' career path would encourage youngsters from their circle to consider it. It's always legitimate and acceptable for others, but 'reasons' why it's not suitable for me or mine.
Perhaps some really do want women displaying themselves in windows as in Holland's red light district. Like meat on a butcher's slab!

There are very few who choose, once you look at yhe figures of sex workers who have experienced abuse in childhood, it is pretty clear that choice as a word is doing a lot if heavy lifting. I don't know which countries it actually does work in, Germany for example is horrific.

I'm not convinced that the majority of sex workers decide this is the first choice of career for them, otherwise I'd expect to see middle and upper class participants, and to my belief they're very thin on the ground.
Perhaps if we legalise all aspects of sex work school careers advisors will offer guidance on how to enter the 'profession'. And as Doodledog horrifically mused unemployed people could have such openings suggested.

I know what you mean, Cossy, but the difficulty in knowing their motives and to what extent they have consented makes me worry that they will still be coerced into doing it.

Iam64

Thanks Galaxy and Doodledog.

Having spent a lot of time with so called sex workers and the men who use and abuse them, no one will ever convince me that ‘choosing sex work’ is a valid, healthy thing.
Men who use women who sell their bodies, are more likeky to be involved in other forms of abuse and domestic violence

I think you’re doing a great job with those abused by men and pimps, however, there are women (& men) who do choose to be sex-workers, only they call themselves “call girls”, I’m simply stating that IF people choose to make their money this way, that they’d be better off being “legalised” and protected. It works in other countries.

Iam64

Cossy, just want to add that my heterosexual as well as gay men friends oppose the oppression of women

I have no doubt they do, someone accused Zack of being “misogynistic”, I think it’s unlikely he is, but then again I still know too little about him to tell.